Today I received a speeding fine saying I was doing 48 in a 30 zone, I know when I was caught and went back to check the speed at where I was zapped, it was definitely in a 40 zone just around the corner from the sign saying 40. Also my sat nav said it was 40, the 30 mph limit doesn't start for over half a mile where there is another sign saying 30. Ok I know I was still speeding but can I do anything about the limit being wrong on the summons? Because it says it was a 30 zone at a speed of 48 I am too much over the limit to do the speed awareness course. Stupidly I didn't photograph the van. Any help would be appreciated.
Speed camera van incorrect fine
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20-07-13 22:14If you are disputing the evidence which you are entitled to do, then your only option is to plead not guilty and present the facts to the court.
You will be entitled to ask for and view their photographic evidence, and if you can discredit the evidence they intend to present, then the courts are obliged to acquit you.
You can present your own case at court or you can use the duty solicitor at the court to represent and present your evidence free of charge. -
21-07-13 08:11However I am guilty but of going 48 in a 40 not 48 in a 30 so would it be right to plead not guilty?
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Guestbelucky2221-07-13 09:38You are definite that you did not commit the speeding offence as charged. In that case you are not guilty. However, you acknowledge that you did speed and commendably seem to want to accept a consequence. Providing you are successful in escaping what you say is an incorrect charge may I suggest an idea. Contribute the fine avoided to a charity. If found guilty not only will you have the points but also a fine and increased insurance. I doubt if the money collected is well used.
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21-07-13 09:41
You are clearly guilty of speeding, so the offer of a £60 fine and 3 points is the best you're going to get. Going to court will see a higher fine, plus victim surcharge, and costs if you plead NG. -
21-07-13 10:09
I accept what you say, however the penalty for 48 in a 30 is going to be substantially more than 48 in a 40, and therefore if you have not exceeded the 30 limit, then you cannot be guilty of that offence code which will appear on your licence as XS30.
On top of that, if they have got the limit in which you were reported (you only get charged when you are arrested) wrong, then what else have they got wrong in evidence.
Whilst some errors have been held to be acceptable providing the basic facts remain accurate, where there is a basic flaw in the evidence, in this case you have been reported for exceeding a 30 limit when you were in fact in a 40, and that is a fundamental flaw in the evidence because it suggests that if you were close to the 30 limit but not actually in the 30 limit, then the evidence will reflect incorrect or inaccurate evidence.
So whilst you admit speeding in the 40, you were "not speeding in a 30" which is what you have been reported for, and on the basis that the prosecution have to prove the case beyond all reasonable doubt and given the flaws in the evidence, then you probably have good grounds to plead not guilty and you stand a good chance of having the case thrown out.
A traffic specialist solicitor will give you a 30 minute consultation foc, so maybe worth finding someone local and have a word and see what their thoughts are. I can only advise from a position of 25+ years of experience as a traffic cop, and everyone makes mistakes from time to time. -
21-07-13 11:39
SP40 is for passenger vehicles. SP30 is for all roads except motorway, which is SP50. -
21-07-13 12:19
Fair play, the codes have changes since I retired then.
But I still stand by the rest of my post. -
21-07-13 12:51I thought the same as TC - Here is the latest for speeding. Go to https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-en...penalty-points for the rest.
It still isn't clear what they mean by a 'passenger' vehicle. Is it a PCV?
And what would get you an SP20? -
21-07-13 17:37Thank you for the reply, I am going to look into it further as it is definitely a 40 zone, if I request the photograph hopefully I can prove where the van was parked, I drove it today and it is over half a mile from the 30 zone with 40mph signs all along . Thanks again
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21-07-13 17:43
Not really true.
48 in a 40 is better than 48 in a 30.
48 in a 40 May get you the offer of a speed awareness course and no points/fine.
Op can you find a number for the camera safety partnership and speak to them first about your concerns? -
21-07-13 18:25If I speak to them isn't that forewarning them of my intention and wouldn't they say it was now out of their hands?
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Guestbelucky2221-07-13 19:18Loony, of course I am unable to guarantee the insurance will go up. Nobody can guarantee the sun will come up. However, do you know of an insurance company that doesn't raise its premium at any excuse ? Mine was raised on the grounds I retired, therefore likely to drive more. I pointed out that I wouldn't be driving for work and with the cost of fuel unlike to raise my mileage ( which was set at the same when I was in work ). The company would not change its position. Nor would any other I asked. The OP is obviously and correctly seeking to protect himself from the results of an error. The penalty should either be correct or not applied.
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21-07-13 20:31Quote............."You can not guarantee the insurance will go up."
I never knew the price of our insurance went up when we got a speeding ticket? ..... Who tells them? -
Guestbelucky2221-07-13 21:47You are asked on the renewal notice. It is not immediate. Fail to declare and you could have very serious problems.
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21-07-13 22:38I've never been asked that in all the years I've been driving. I did get a speeding ticket way back in 2001, but it was never mentioned when I renewed the insurance for the car? :confused:
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22-07-13 10:58Smudger, I believe that it is down to you to advise your insurer of anything that could affect your premium. All companies I have dealt with ask about accidents/collisiions and prosecutions when initially approaching them, and as I say, I believe they put the onus on you to disclose anything along the way.
I informed my insurer of my invitation to attend a Speed Awareness Course, and they said they weren't interensted in that, but if I had been fined, they would have made a note of it on my 'record', but no premium increase. -
22-07-13 11:00As to the original question, I would plead Not Guilty at Court, as, having got the speed limit wrong, the charge is wrong, and by your account, you were NOT doing 48 in a 30 limit. I would take photos of the relevant signage though to help prove your case.
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22-07-13 13:32You could speak to the Crown Prosecution Service (or Central Ticket Office if it a fixed penalty) explain your situation and see what they say.
The central ticket offices are often run by civilians but many are retired coppers who know how the system works, and it it is in respect of a possible summons, then the CPS will have no axe to grind, if it is wrong and a summons already issued they will simply offer no evidence at court or simply not issue summons in the first place if it has not got that far yet.
As far as insurance premiums are concerned, you do not have to declare a driver awareness course as this is not a conviction. Only a court can convict or, by acceptance of a fixed penalty notice can it be deemed a conviction.
So points or conviction are all you have to declare, but it is the duty of the person concerned to notify their insurance of a change of circumstances, a driver awareness course is not a conviction therefore no need to declare it. -
22-07-13 13:47
Apparently there may be at least one insurance Co that expects divers to tell them about driver awareness courses. This was a while ago on another forum, so no link, but the poster said that he had been asked to declare all convictions and driver awareness courses on an insurance application. -
22-07-13 14:09
Then that is a peculiarity of a specific insurance company, no doubt used as a means to justify their increase in premiums, but it is still not a conviction, and most insurers will specifically ask for details of accidents and convictions.
If an insurer asks for details of any speed awareness course, then that is a different matter and the policy holder is duty bound to declare it, but only if asked, the information about awareness courses does not have to be offered. -
24-07-13 09:48
They should have got their facts right on the paperwork. As charged, it would appear that you are NOT guilty, so plead not guilty to the charges laid against you. On the day in court, They may not have the necessary evidence available to show to the magistrates, in which case they will have to find you not guilty. -
24-07-13 13:05
Yes, I agree with you. If you are sure of your facts, then let them take you to court, then in your defence and claim of not being guilty you can say that there is a substantial error in the facts on the charge. Namely, that it was not a 30 mph limit at the spot that they allege. That is a fundamental error. It is entirely possible that the officer will not be in court to personally give evidence. So do not implicate yourself for an offence which they have not charged you with, isd my best advice. -
24-07-13 13:07As far as insurance premiums are concerned, you do not have to declare a driver awareness course as this is not a conviction. Only a court can convict or, by acceptance of a fixed penalty notice can it be deemed a conviction.
This is now quite common with a lot of insurance companies now, not just the odd one. It is unreasonable to have to pay extra as this does not mean that you are a bad driver. There are many out there that are absolute rubbish at driving and have never really mastered the job but never break the law. I wouldn't trust them with a supermarket trolley let alone a car. The insurance sees them as safe even though they may have actually contributed to RTC's by their driving. Eg. M5 last Fri 18th July 13 two older ladies at 35mph on the motorway!!! Mmmmm What were they doing that speed for, on a normally fast road? That is safe for them but it caused many manouveres that were last minute for others and potentially dangerous. They were just as much a problem as those doing over 100mph in the outside lane (which is NOT a fast lane, it is for overtaking up to 70mph) -
24-07-13 13:32
It does not work that way, it is not a case of implicating oneself, it is about nipping a potential problem in the bud before it goes too far.
If the OP makes his concerns known to the CPS or central ticket office and they still decide to prosecute, then if the OP is found not guilty, usually costs are awarded against the Police on the basis that the prosecution should not have occurred. Usually when costs are awarded against the Police this is cause for an investigation and creates all sorts of problems internally, so if the evidence is inaccurate, they will want to bin the case at the earliest opportunity.
If he simply pleads not guilty, then the reporting officer will be called to give evidence as his statement cannot be served as a section 9 statement. (A section 9 statement is one where the contents is read out in full and not disputed) In this case the evidence is being disputed so the policeman will be called.
A simple phone call or letter could bring this matter to a conclusion without anymore fuss or hassle.
And for the last time, he has not been charged, he has been reported for summons. :rolleyes: To be charged implies that he has been arrested which does not happen in minor traffic cases such as this.
