An Integrated Transport System in the UK?

28-04-09 13:00

I believe that before any thoughts of an integrated transport system, the system we have should be brought up to an acceptable standard. This would include repairs to the rail network and rolling stock so the trains could run on time. Then couple this with a repairs program for the road system, to give the buses a chance of adhering to a timetable. Then get rid of the entrepreneurs who run the various transport systems for a quick buck rather than the convenience of passengers and users, and combine this with a pricing system which makes sense and is affordable. (If nationalization is the only way this will happen, so be it.) When we have a public transport system which can run to a timetable with sensible pricing, we could begin to integrate those systems to a state where it would be worthwhile to use public transport.

28-04-09 13:59

Hi Rolebama,

That's an interesting point of view; do you think nationalisation is the only way to achieve an integrated transport system?

MrDanno

28-04-09 14:29

Originally Posted by Rolebama

Then get rid of the entrepreneurs who run the various transport systems for a quick buck rather than the convenience of passengers and users, and combine this with a pricing system which makes sense and is affordable. (If nationalization is the only way this will happen, so be it.)

I agree entirely! There is too many people in these independent railways that claim very high salaries and their companies get huge grants from the government to keep them running. They should be forced to take a basic salary of Â£30,000 PA and only get more as an efficiency bonus based on how they performed and how much they didn't have to claim from the government.

28-04-09 15:55

Hi MrDanno,

Thanks for posting! What do you think about the car being positioned as an integral part of a transport system? Do you think we should continue to rely on the car or would you put more emphasis on public transport?

28-04-09 16:07

To be honest, I think that nationalizing would not necessarily be a good thing, but I do think that a single owner of the entire system would be more beneficial, with a management structure who were capable and paid a reasonable salary.
With regard to cars, I think it would/could be practical to have RORO wagons for them on an Intercity basis, which, if reasonably priced could encourage some people to use them. The terminals for which could be placed in the outskirts.

sabber

28-04-09 17:00

They keep telling us we should get out of the car and use public transport and when I check prices and time tables, it is always cheaper and more reliable to use the car, and that is with just myself in the car, imagine if I could get someone to share my long journies. All we ask for is an affordable, not extorsionate, transport system which we can take when we need it, from where we need it, and to where we want to go, not when and where they want us to go. I don't care about luggage and other stuff, just transport which is cheap and at a time when we need it.

28-04-09 17:30

Definitely renationalise the rail system, without a shadow of a doubt. That seems the first and most obvious solution to me. Tory privatisation in the 90s is what made it so horrendous in the first place.

Some countries (e.g. Switzerland, Japan) have a rail system where the trains are on time virtually 100% of the time, and if a train is 5 or 10 minutes late, it is unacceptable and a scandal that hits national headlines. Why can't we have a system like this?

Cars will always be crucial in rural areas where there is no alternative, nomatter how excellent any public transport system is. I am not having a go at public transport bosses here, it's just that in some places it is simply unpractical to have public transport infracture, especially in remote areas of western Scotland, where building a comprehensive train line would be hugely expensive and using it would not be any quicker than the car.

smudger

28-04-09 19:01

They had railways to most of those remote areas in Scotland, but Beaching had them all ripped up back in the 60s, when he closed them all down?
Cheers, Smudger.

29-04-09 08:34

Hi sabber,

If public transport in the UK was more affordable and at more convenient times, how much do you think you would personally use public transport? Would there still be some journeys you would make by car and what sort of journeys would these be?

29-04-09 08:40

Hi 98selitb,

Do you think the public transport system in the UK was better before privatisation? Was it as good as the current public transport systems in Janan and Switzerland and what do you think it will take for the UK public transport system to be as good as in Japan and Switzerland?

29-04-09 10:21

To travel to any of my daughters would take somewhere in the region of 3hrs and cost around the Â£19.80 mark, with a 10 min minicab ride costing Â£7.50 from the station to their home. I do the journey in my car, door to door for around Â£5 fuel, and about 1hr 10 mins. The public transport does not include waiting time for a bus, underground or main line train. Prices are one way for one person.

29-04-09 11:05

Originally Posted by Collette Wright

Hi 98selitb,

Do you think the public transport system in the UK was better before privatisation? Was it as good as the current public transport systems in Japan and Switzerland and what do you think it will take for the UK public transport system to be as good as in Japan and Switzerland?

Hi Collette. I think the public transport system in the UK was better before privatisation, as it was one company (British Rail) running, accounting for and taking responsibility for all lines. Therefore there could be no excuses if there was a mess-up, they could not pass the buck onto some other company like they all do now, and as a result of that they performed better because they knew the blame would always be with them if they made a mistake. I shall give an example why this is a good thing, please forgive me if it's long winded.

A couple of years ago I had cause to travel by train from Oxford to Bangor, changing at Birmingham, Crewe and Chester. The train from Oxford (Virgin Trains) was 40 minutes late and I missed my connection at Birmingham. My original planned train from Birm. to Crewe was also with Virgin, but the later one I actually got was run by London Midland. From Crewe to Chester it was Transpennine. When I got to Chester, I had missed the last train of the night to Bangor (Arriva Trains Wales) due to my original delay in Oxford. I went to the ticket desk and asked if they would pay for a taxi to take me to Bangor, as I had always thought that was the general rule if you miss the last train due to train delays. They refused to give me money for a taxi to Bangor because they said it was a different company (Virgin) who had started the thing off with their 40-minutes delay, and as Chester is an Arriva Trains Wales station, there was nothing they could do, and the responsibility lay with Virgin. I didn't have enough money for a taxi to Bangor (60 miles away) so I slept on a bench at Chester station and got the first train the next morning at 5am.

Basically, when there are so many companies covering our routes, the customers suffer because when something like this happens, all the train companies do is blame each other and refuse to get involved. I wrote to Arriva Trains Wales re. refusing to pay a taxi for me, and to Virgin re. the original delay, they both replied to me and put the blame on the other company. So it is impossible to get a satisfactory outcome when you have the situation like this.

I have never been to Japan so maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it as an example, but I have always seen and heard their trains are amazing standard and quality and timetabled to the second. I am in Switzerland several times a year and their trains are always on time, people on the platforms start to moan and go stomping off to the information desk if their train is 5 minutes late. Maybe it is a question of how much money the government puts into the train network? Switzerland is an extremely mountainous country but still has a fantastic transport network, so there's no reason why the same can't be done here in certain parts of Wales and Scotland. No, I don't think our network was ever as good as it is in e.g. Switzerland, even before privatisation, but it was definitely better than it is today.

To get the network better, I suppose it will take money, money, money but it must be spent in the right places and not just thrown indescriminately into the network. The people making the decisions where exactly to spend this money must be people who actually know first-hand about it, e.g. train drivers, guards, station masters etc., not politicians or CEOs sitting in offices who never use trains who haven't got the first idea where the problems lie.

29-04-09 11:09

My story of travelling is similar to Rolebama's regarding prices. I spend roughly 6 months in one place and 6 months in the other, in different parts of the UK. To travel between them by car it takes 7 hours and uses about 1/3 of my diesel tank, about Â£15 or Â£20. By train it takes 8 hours, 4 changes and costs Â£80.

29-04-09 11:14

When the railways were split up and sold off, a little while later, Radio 4 invited the buyers to the studio to make a programme about why things were going wrong. The only one who turned up was Richard Branson. He had travelled on one of his own trains to get there. His reply was:
Originally, he was led to believe that his bid was for rolling stock, tracks and all associated buildings. He was then informed that he was only bidding for rolling stock. Upon delivery, he was told that most of his rolling stock was unsafe, and had to be repaired/upgraded before the owners of the rail network would allow it onto their track. (Bearing in mind that the day before BR had been running the stock.) He was then left to try and run a full timetable with less than a third of the rolling stock that had been in service the day before!
The other owners who had been invited to attend the studio all phoned in at some time during the programme to explain that they couldn't make it because their cars had broken down!

MrDanno

29-04-09 11:34

Originally Posted by Collette Wright

Hi MrDanno,

Thanks for posting! What do you think about the car being positioned as an integral part of a transport system? Do you think we should continue to rely on the car or would you put more emphasis on public transport?

This is a relatively easy question to answer and my views are similar to those of others.
Both the car and public transport system has a unique advantage over the other (depending on your location of course).

If I wanted to travel into the center of London (without too much luggage) then I use the Bus and train. It's cost about Â£7 (I think) and there is no cost or difficulty with trying to park a car somewhere.

However, If myself and the family are going to visit my sisters, The most cost and time effective way is by car.

smudger

29-04-09 17:08

When I lived further north here in Scotland, I had to use public transport for a week, while my car was being repaired. I had to get up and hour earlier, wait about 10-15 minutes, as the bus was never on time, the journey took 20 minutes longer as it went all round the small villages, and that was only for a 12 mile trip!

Getting home was even worse, and it added 2 hours to my working day. So you can imagine how pleased I was to get my car back again. Just goes to show, that if you live in a rural area, you NEED a car;)
Cheers, Smudger.

ficklejade

29-04-09 18:36

OK, I live on a Scottish island now, but in the past have used (and subsequently tried to use) public transport to get from A to B on journeys, as well as commuting.

Way back in the mid/late 70s, I was a long distance commuter to London. Mostly the trains (then British Rail) ran to time (or at least the conductor would come along and advise what was wrong â€“ cows on the line at Harold Wood that took two hours to remove and total chaos in Liverpool Street one morning was something my then boss found hard to believe, but it was true!!).

Also way back then, when I was doing trips from Essex to Aviemore and points north, even the Outer Isles, I was able to get a train/tube/bus ticket right the way through (only MacBraynes was the exception, but thatâ€™s to be expected!). On one of these journeys, because a problem with one carriage, the train was shortened and all of us plebs in second class were allowed to sit in the Pullman section and we were treated royally. Iâ€™ve also several times been stuck heading north because of bad weather south of Edinburgh and the conductor would come through the train checking who had onward connections â€“ Iâ€™ve been put up in an hotel (not the cheapest!) in Edinburgh more than once because it wasnâ€™t worth holding the onward train. BR paid it and my meal and for all the phone calls to sort out the hassles my non-arrival meant. On another journey, a very sad occasion for me, BR staff organised for me to have a first class compartment to myself (only had student ticket) â€“ true, I was well known to them as a former commuter on that line and word had got round why I was going home, but it was still a great kindness. That was service!

Prior to that period, weâ€™d also used the Motorail services to get to Edinburgh and points north for special occasions, rather than our holidays when we towed a caravan. This had the advantage of allowing us the flexibility of the car â€“ hiring cars was not so easy then as now! â€“ but not the 400 miles drive each way! I should like to see something of the sort re-introduced.

After leaving London (hubbyâ€™s relocation to Birmingham), we ended up in a rented cottage (outside loo) which was all we could afford at the time. I had temp jobs in the nearest town but the only bus was the school one, so I couldnâ€™t get home without a car! Got a permanent job â€“ I had to walk four miles to the bus stop, then buses didnâ€™t run direct and would have got me in half an hour late and couldnâ€™t get a connection back at all. Same problem with the next job in a different place.

Rapidly moving forward to about 9 years ago, I was staying in a city suburb and tried to use the local bus service. No problems (although it wasnâ€™t a frequent one) really about getting in, but, as many of my lectures finished at clocking off time, I could wait an hour and a half to get on a bus home! Not good when youâ€™ve family responsibilities.

Having removed ourselves to this island, we do have a kind of integrated transport. Much to the annoyance of many visitors, the bus services (only three and that means much of the island is not served by public transport at all) run to meet some of the ferries to the main mainland port. They are very heavily subsidized (and expensive fares as well) as one would expect but it is a service. The joke begins on the mainland â€“ we have two trains a day to Glasgow and for a good part of the year, thereâ€™s no ferry to get you there to catch one of them without going the previous night; same applies to the early bus service to Glasgow â€“ we then get two buses and one train leaving all within 10 minutes of each for the same destination! For the bulk of the year, one has to go to Glasgow to get anywhere else â€“ unless you fancy two hoursâ€™ wait on an open station in a blizzard heading north!!

For all remote and rural areas, the car has to be a part of the mix. It is not financially viable to provide comprehensive public transport. However, to encourage those who do use a car and use public transport from a hub, there has to be a very good service and that includes cheap, secure car parking, plus affordable fares. Frankly, it is cheaper and more convenient for me to use the car to my destination than bother with expensive car parking â€“ often not secure â€“ and fares that are out of this world! Plus, for most of the year, I can save a day by driving because currently timetables are a joke for any long journey.

Iâ€™m not saying that integrated transport isnâ€™t desirable â€“ it certainly is â€“ and it might not be necessary for re-nationalization to take place. What is essential is that there is a national plan for integrated transport and the various operators must work to it or face penalties if they donâ€™t.

Rolebama (I think) said that we need vast improvements in infrastructure before we can really go ahead with a proper integrated transport system. (Sorry if thatâ€™s not exactly his words.) I agree.

One final point on the car mix and one the RAC and other member motorist organisations should be banging loudly on about, is that the impact of the various taxes on motorists are generating a dangerous situation and destabilizing local rural economies. Of course, part of this is the general hype about global warming but, with a general election looming and the majority living in urban environments, what political party is going to pay attention to the damage to those few rural folks?

29-04-09 19:52

In order for an integrated public transport system to work, we need not only available, but also affordable train travel. The RAC news section ran an article a week or so ago saying train fares will soon go up 11%. The train companies must be having a laugh. How can they expect us to use trains more when they take such huge price hikes in a recession? Britain already has the most expensive train travel in Europe, in terms of price per mile (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...in-Europe.html), so there is a lot of work to do before people will abandon their cars for a train ride instead.

As Ficklejade mentioned, car parking at train stations is often very expensive. Maybe if train stations offered free or substantially cheaper parking, more people would park on the outskirts and get the train into town.

30-04-09 08:32

Hi 98selitb,

Thank you for your comments - this is really useful

Collette

30-04-09 08:46

Hi MrDanno,

Would you agree with others that the UK public transport system needs improving and if so, how would you like to see it improved?

MrDanno

30-04-09 15:39

Originally Posted by Collette Wright

Hi MrDanno,

Would you agree with others that the UK public transport system needs improving and if so, how would you like to see it improved?

I think first and foremost, The railway tracks need to be owned or at least managed by one company. There has been several incidents where pieces of track have gone without repairs or inspections for years because the different companies have thought a certain section of track was not their responsibility.

I'm not so sure that it is necessary for a single company to operate all the trains but, I think it needs a governing body to set them with a target.

Maybe the routes which buses take could be better managed by having a website where people could register what their normal start and finish points are for journeys to work. Then a computer could work through the data to establish the best routes to suit 80% of the people ?

sabber

30-04-09 19:31

To make public transport work, we need more trains and more buses/coaches. We then need to make sure they run on time and very reliably. Finally, they need to be cheaper than running a car, otherwise, why would anyone want to sit with a whole bunch of strangers for a number of hours. My weekly travel includes driving from Berkshire to Lancashire, which costs me around Â£50-60 per week. this at my convenience, setting off at my chosen time and arriving within 4 hours at worst. A train would cost me at least Â£80 and I would have to change a couple of times and the duration would be closer to 8 hours. Why would I want to take that option. Non starter I am afraid.

ficklejade

01-05-09 19:24

Some additional thoughts!.

My local Council is currently doing a consultation on Core Paths â€“ and that includes urban paths â€“ on the principle that these would be recognised, made up and safe for folks to use as an alternative to using the car (say for school runs). Whilst Iâ€™m concerned about the safety aspect (certainly in the urban environment I used to live in), locally the Council allowed the sell-off of land including a recognised (over a century) path that allowed children to avoid a narrow road â€“ also a bus route - (now in major state of disrepair) to school â€“ this happened less than six years ago and the folks who own the houses where this path used to be donâ€™t want to be disturbed. I own part of the same footpath and would rather the kids were safe than any damage that might occur (a small community has its own ways of dealing with this sort of thing). Linking in Core Paths is also part of integrated transport â€“ shorten walking or cycling distances to (say) rail stations and take folks off the road at high congestion period will make traffic flow smoother and safer for the pedestrian/cyclist.

I have now obtained the permission of a friend who had to undertake a rail journey from Stockport to Hereford and back mid December year before last. All went well on the journey down but her return journey took nearly twice as long as scheduled and was in part replaced by a bus transfer (scheduled but not advised to her on booking). Being partially disabled, she could not get in the bus provided as it did not have the lowering platform steps. She had to suffer the indignity of being physically lifted into the bus â€“ and out at the other end. By this time she had missed her connection and had to pay extra to go to Manchester to get back to Stockport â€“ there being no other train to Stockport. No apologies or refund ever given! More recently, because of her disability, she had to go to a funeral in Edinburgh from the same destination. She booked and paid for her tickets and seat reservation only to find, on the way up, that the train had been affected by rolling stock problems and there was no seat for her. She had made her disability known but the train companies involved did nothing. The only persons who helped were an elderly lady of more advanced years but much better health who took it in turns to share seats and a foreign student who gave up her seat for my friend. In both cases my friend has gone through a nightmare of trying to get compensation from more than one company â€“ not yet forthcoming.

If re-nationalization would accomplish liability in such circumstances, Iâ€™m for it. However, you will understand my cynicism that this is not going to happen!

BTW, Iâ€™ve noticed that others whoâ€™ve posted have had admin queries. Iâ€™m feeling neglected here. Was I too banal (likely); too comprenhensice (unlikey) or simply because I live in a location of too little importance â€“ if the majority of other consultation websites is anything to go by â€“ highly probable! Just so as everyone is aware, I pay taxes and NI, VED and fuel duty, etc. too â€“ why should folks like me be ignored â€“ too few of us, I suppose, therefore not worth bothering about.

08-05-09 11:12

Hi ficklejade,

I just wanted to reassure you that we are equally interested in what you have to say along with others on the forum. I think it was just that you gave such detailed coments we didn't have further questions to ask you! However, I've been racking my brains and I'm really interested in your idea about Core paths so I'd like to ask whether there are any other similar initiatives in your area? I know where I live there has been a big campaign to provide cycle tracks and it has really improved peoples access to green areas of the city and made it quicker to make some journeys. Do you think these sorts of ambitions are possible where you live and in other areas of the UK?

Snowball

09-05-09 18:43

The costs of using public transport are already more expensive that using the car. And in today's press, there is more news that rail travellers are to face further heavy increases in fares. Any hope of an itegrated transport system is already a dead duck.

10-05-09 11:18

I am contemplating going to a military reunion in August. It is just over 200 miles away. I have been looking at transport for the journey, and these are the total costs and times for the return trip.
Car. Cost Â£40. Travelling time around 9hrs.
Rail. Cost Â£145. Travelling time minimum 10hrs.
Coach. Cost Â£75. Travelling time minimum 17hrs.
I live just 3 miles from a motorway, and it would be motorways and major A roads from then until the last quarter mile.

10-05-09 11:31

9 hours by car for a 200-mile journey, all on motorways and major A-roads?

10-05-09 13:37

No, no, no. Read again, then go to the back of the class. lol. 400 miles, 9 hrs includes stop for the necessities. I have looked at A roads in Atlases and websites, and they are full of roundabouts, so doubt if I will get a 'cruise' on all of them. Plus an allowance for local traffic in some areas.