[AnthonyS]

Despite the economic downturn, the results of a recent survey have suggested that the average price of repairing a car has risen over the past year. Has the price you pay risen recently?

Please click on the link below to read the full story and tell us your views...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8267562.stm

[Rolebama]

With everything going up in price all the time, of course the garages are going to increase prices. They want the minimum of the same profit levels as they had last year, although more is always nicer, so prices will obviously go up. With all the media and Govt hype about a recession, car servicing is nearly always one of the financial cutbacks made, and this is reflected in garage prices as they still want the income even if it through fewer jobs being done. This also leads to increased prices. When the 'recession' is over, and their workload returns to 'normal', like everyone else, they don't reduce prices.

[Hometune]

Very true.
It is surprising to me as my supplier has for the most part NOT increased their prices. Some profiteering perhaps?

[smudger]

I have noticed that a lot of garages are advertising cut price deals on their services, but when you read the small print its only for customers who buy the new car from them.

[Snowball]

Today, at my service department, I picked up a leaflet which relates a scale of charges to vehicle age.
This starts at 10% labour discount and 5% parts discount at 2 years old, to 50% labour discount and 25% parts discount at over 10 years old.

If there is a logical reason, it is beyond me.

[Rolebama]

Snowball, I don't know for sure, but what makes sense to me is that anyone with a 10yr old car is probably using local independent garages and third party parts. This is a big market, so it could just be that the dealer is trying to recapture some of those lost customers. I run a 10yr old car through choice, yet I do know those that run older cars through financial/budgetary restrictions.

[Snowball]

Sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. I suppose that indicates it being worthwhile to ask for a discount with the newer cars.

[Hometune]

That seems to make sense Rolebama but the only problem I see with this, is that those with 10 year old cars tend not to go into the dealers so they won't see the leaflet?
The other point is that this will encourage people to keep their older cars which is contrary to the vehicle scrappage scheme?
I have just come from a scrapyard where they take in the cars from dealers under this scheme. They cannot be dismantled or touched in any way and have to be crushed as they stand. There are 23 cars here and every one of them was in a good roadworthy condition. One, a 1997 Polo 1.4 with 57,000 miles, 12 months MOT, full service history, was almost immaculate and was highly polished with an unmarked interior. What a waste, as this would have been a good car for a new driver and had many years left in it. If, as the global warming people tell us, it costs more in CO2 emissions to build a new car than run the old one, we live in a crazy world.

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by Hometune

There are 23 cars here and every one of them was in a good roadworthy condition. One, a 1997 Polo 1.4 with 57,000 miles, 12 months MOT, full service history, was almost immaculate and was highly polished with an unmarked interior. What a waste, as this would have been a good car for a new driver and had many years left in it. If, as the global warming people tell us, it costs more in CO2 emissions to build a new car than run the old one, we live in a crazy world.

That is just plain stupid, The powers that be are always telling us not to waste things and yet they encourage people to scrap perfectly good cars to increase sales of new cars.

[Hometune]

Meanwhile the cars that need to be taken off the road are running around as their owners cannot afford the £4,000 to buy a new one even with the scrappage scheme. :confused:
And on today's news it is suggested by the Motor Insurers Bureau that 1.7 MILLION cars are NOT insured. :eek:

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by Hometune

Meanwhile the cars that need to be taken off the road are running around as their owners cannot afford the £4,000 to buy a new one even with the scrappage scheme. :confused:
And on today's news it is suggested by the Motor Insurers Bureau that 1.7 MILLION cars are NOT insured. :eek:

I think the two go hand in hand. People buy a cheap old wreck and drive it until they get stopped for no Insurance then they don't care if it is taken from them - They just go and get another old wreck.


The other thing I've noticed is people seem to buy old cars to price rather than condition. I recently had someone show an interest in one of my cars which is well maintained, As soon as I said I wanted £2000 for it they said "that's just because of the scrappage, It's not worth anything like that - I can get one for £500 for the same year" The fact they were going to be wasting their £500 on a lump of scrap didn't seem to register :rolleyes:

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Hometune

Meanwhile the cars that need to be taken off the road are running around as their owners cannot afford the £4,000 to buy a new one even with the scrappage scheme. :confused:
And on today's news it is suggested by the Motor Insurers Bureau that 1.7 MILLION cars are NOT insured. :eek:

Driving without tax and/or insurance is something that is going to be ever present in our undisciplined society; and the more lenient the punishment, then more drivers will resort to these offences.

Ultimately, I believe that the practice will only be eradicated by technology. For example, the plastic driving licence could be extended to include tax and insurance data. Cars could be chipped, fuel pumps have the ability to recognise them, and the plastic card have to be inserted at the pump in the same way as a bank debit card.
This would bring the car and driver details together at one point to accept or reject a transaction for fuel.

Sounds Draconian, but the technology is already possible and it only needs the powers-that-be to recognise such procedure as an absolute necessity.

I would not object to these measures, because I don't want illegal drivers sharing the roads that I use. We expect technology to protect us from other forms of crime (e.g., bank fraud), so why should motoring crime escape the net?

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by Snowball

For example, the plastic driving licence could be extended to include tax and insurance data. Cars could be chipped, fuel pumps have the ability to recognise them, and the plastic card have to be inserted at the pump in the same way as a bank debit card.
This would bring the car and driver details together at one point to accept or reject a transaction for fuel.

The problem with this is, It will be the same as the difficult measures brought in to buy a replacement number plate -

You know the fantastic idea thought of by a load of people sitting around a table sipping at glasses of water and Eureka! "Lets make it impossible for criminals to get false number plate - They'll have to have documents etc. etc." - Not one of those people thought - These are criminals, They'll just go and unscrew someone else's number plates :rolleyes:

It'll be the same with Fuel, If it is too hard for them to buy it, They will come and steal yours!

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by MrDanno

The problem with this is, It will be the same as the difficult measures brought in to buy a replacement number plate -

You know the fantastic idea thought of by a load of people sitting around a table sipping at glasses of water and Eureka! "Lets make it impossible for criminals to get false number plate - They'll have to have documents etc. etc." - Not one of those people thought - These are criminals, They'll just go and unscrew someone else's number plates :rolleyes:

It'll be the same with Fuel, If it is too hard for them to buy it, They will come and steal yours!

Typical British approach; always look at the negative side. This never produced progress. Everyone knows that abuse of road use is now reaching unacceptable levels, and remedies will be necessary sooner rather than later.
Make no mistake, when the situation becomes sufficiently critical, remedial action will be taken. Just consider what is technologically possible now, that was thought totally impossible less than 20 years ago. Then think forwards as to what may be possible in ten years with the same technological advances.
When push finally comes to shove, the masses will either control themselves or be controlled.

As Al Jolson said, "You ain't seen nothing yet".

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Typical British approach; always look at the negative side. This never produced progress.

I would prefer to use the term 'being realistic' :D

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by MrDanno

I would prefer to use the term 'being realistic' :D

I prefer the phrases, "Necessity is the mother of invention", and, "Needs must when the devil drives".

Attitudes towards being realistic change according to tolerance versus unacceptability.

Regards, Snowball.

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Ultimately, I believe that the practice will only be eradicated by technology. For example, the plastic driving licence could be extended to include tax and insurance data. Cars could be chipped, fuel pumps have the ability to recognise them, and the plastic card have to be inserted at the pump in the same way as a bank debit card.
This would bring the car and driver details together at one point to accept or reject a transaction for fuel.

Sounds Draconian, but the technology is already possible and it only needs the powers-that-be to recognise such procedure as an absolute necessity.

I would not object to these measures, because I don't want illegal drivers sharing the roads that I use. We expect technology to protect us from other forms of crime (e.g., bank fraud), so why should motoring crime escape the net?

I would never use the card facility on a fuel pump. Unless there has been a recent change your card details sit on the pumps hard drive until the filling station elects to clear it, theft of these hard drives is fairly easy and one source for identity theft type criminals. The last and only time I had to use one, I cancelled the card the following day. Better safe than sorry...

[Snowball]

wagolynn, I was thinking in terms of the card-type driving licence being extended as I previously detailed for the facility to get the fuel pump to activate, not for the purpose of transacting cash.
If the card details were correct, they would be wiped clean after completion of the filling procedure; if not, they would be held for automated transfer to the appropriate authority. All this technology is now available.
We accept protective facilities on the web, where hackers breaking into personal details can cause problems, and at worst affect financial situations.
But using technology as I am suggesting would get many illegal drivers off the roads; and as it is reasonable to assume this group represents the greatest percentage of dangerous drivers, then logic says that it will save lives.

Regards, Snowball.

[wagolynn]

Hi Snowball,
Would it not be simpler to just put the Road Fund Tax and insurance onto the price of fuel? Getting illegal drivers off the road, to what end? Do you mean, because I have paid and they have not? I can see there is an issue with uninsured vehicles in the sense that suing them for damages will probably be pointless because, as the law puts it, they are likely to be “men of strawâ€.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

Hi Snowball,
Would it not be simpler to just put the Road Fund Tax and insurance onto the price of fuel? Getting illegal drivers off the road, to what end? Do you mean, because I have paid and they have not? I can see there is an issue with uninsured vehicles in the sense that suing them for damages will probably be pointless because, as the law puts it, they are likely to be “men of strawâ€.

To go about one's life there are many obligations that apply in law. Like it or not, we have to accept and abide by these, otherwise the choice becomes anarchy and survival of the fittest.

Road tax and insurance are every bit as justifiable as is council tax and VAT, along with a multitude of other taxes.

In the case of a motor vehicle, there is the additional problem danger to lives from drivers who should not be on the roads. It is logical to asssume that many illegal drivers are in this category because they are aware that their driving ability is unacceptable.

Failure to pay legitimate dues is theft, and a motorcar is no different.

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Failure to pay legitimate dues is theft, and a motorcar is no different.

I would not call it theft, freeloading yes.
I just don’t see how anyone can know that an untaxed car is being driven by an unlicensed driver, similarly with insurance. If it is true that untaxed and uninsured cars are the cause of all accidents, the solution is simple. Add tax and insurance to the cost of fuel and we will have no more accidents. Of course, to make it work, we would have to have one insurance company for motor vehicles, probably a not-for-profit company backed by the government. This would likely result in lower insurance costs, so no bad thing.

[Rolebama]

All I hear about untaxed cars usually comes down to costs, in that people will risk driving an untaxed car. It does make sense to me that if they find it a financial burden to tax their car, then it is likely they have no insurance or MOT. With the current costs of lessons and Tests, I would think it a matter of natural progression that there will be more people driving unlicensed, and with the various Govt Depts telling us how many untaxed, uninsured cars there are in use, I would not be surprised if the majority were unlicensed.
During my time working on cars, I have met too many people who cannot really afford to drive, yet keep it up purely as a status symbol.

[Snowball]

Freeloading is taking every opportunity to get or take something for nothing. If a freebie is willingly handed out to a freeloader, then that is up to the giver. But taking or obtaining goods or services by deliberately avoiding legitimate payment is plain and simple theft.
Wrap it up how you like, but generally the only ones who refuse to recognise it as a crime are either those who commit such acts, or misguided philanthropists.

[wagolynn]

Hi, snowball,
Pleased to see you have not got totally frustrated with the forum. I agree that everyone should pay up and drivers that don’t should not be allowed to use the roads, what I disagree on is that it will have much effect on road safety. I think it is just another way, say like the speeding argument, of side stepping the underlying problems and therefore not finding better solutions.

[MrDanno]

I can't remember the point where this thread changed from car repairs to 'freeloaders' but, It won't matter whatever restrictions are put in place. It will only hinder the people it that it was not designed to target as normal - Making everyone's life harder for the sake of the few.

The car confiscation system has not deterred many as they just drive an old banger until it gets taken, Then they just go and get another. Short of putting these people in a prison cell and welding the door shut nothing will stop them.

I watched an episode of one of the traffic police programs where they took a car off a gypsy woman for having no documents and within an hour he spotted her in another car - again without documents.

[Snowball]

Perhaps the best way to deal with these people is to take them, the car and a sledgehammer and put them in a locked compound; only to be set free when the car has been virtually flattened.
Might be a good deterrent, as hard work is the last thing they want.

[smudger]

Good idea there Snowball, but I am pretty sure that the old Politically Correct brigade and the Health & Safety lot will soon come up with some objections, let alone the old trusted Human Rights lot;)

[Snowball]

Smudger, you are probably right.
Trouble is, those who refuse/can't afford to insure their vehicles also have no tax or MoT for the same reason, otherwise they would show up on the DVLA database.

It logically follows that such vehicles are also not maintained to a roadworthy standard, and the sheer numbers in this category greatly increases the dangers on our roads.

Take a normally careful driver with a legally documented and well maintained vehicle. He/she is still capable of causing injury due to human error, but at least any victims have the chance of the emergency services being called immediately, getting urgent medical attention and compensation available in worst case scenarios.

Compare this to what can happen with an illegally used vehicle. The risks can be magnified by a combination of human error, unroadworthy vehicle, incapable (unqualified) driver, and driver running away instead of calling the emergency services, so no immediate medical attention and no/much less chance of compensatory aid.

When the wider, more realistic picture is considered, it takes little effort to appreciate just how serious is the need to impose and maitain strict discipline as to who operates vehicles on our roads.

Failure to do so will ultimately bring road safety to a plateau where continued necessary improvement cannot be achieved.

Regards, Snowball.