Police Cautions for motoring situations

  • Dennis W's Avatar
    This relates to speed awareness courses in a way.

    Who knows what the status of a police caution is for a motoring related incident, please? :confused:
  • 19 Replies

  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    A formal police caution is used for low-level offences, where the offender admits guilt.

    It is recorded on the Police National Computer, and (where appropriate) on the offender's criminal record.

    I have never heard of this being used for motoring offences, and it's difficult to see why it would be, since there are other options available (fixed penalties and courses) short of court action.

    If the "motoring-related incident" was, say, a "road rage" assault, then the fact that it was motoring-related is irrelevant, and it should be treated as any other assault.
  • Santa's Avatar
    I suspect that a 'police caution' related to a driving offence is not a formal procedure that gets recorded, but is more in the nature of a b******ing... telling off.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    I gave thousands of cautions for motoring offences during my service, it was and still is standard practice.

    These cautions are officially filed! In the bin :rolleyes:

    It was always a bit of leverage we used to use under section 1 of the ways and means act 1892 ;) Usually had the desired affect.

    However, official cautions for criminal matters are recorded, but not for motoring offences.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    I gave thousands of cautions for motoring offences during my service, it was and still is standard practice.

    These cautions are officially filed! In the bin :rolleyes:

    It was always a bit of leverage we used to use under section 1 of the ways and means act 1892 ;) Usually had the desired affect.

    However, official cautions for criminal matters are recorded, but not for motoring offences.

    But (most) motoring offences are criminal matters ....
  • TC1474's Avatar
    But (most) motoring offences are criminal matters ....

    Since when?

    The majority of traffic offences are just that, motoring offences for which you do not receive a criminal record which stays with you for life. The exceptions are the likes of drink driving, death by dangerous driving.

    As one of the experts on here, you should know better.
  • Loony's Avatar
    But (most) motoring offences are criminal matters ....

    As above very few motoring offences are criminal offences.
  • Santa's Avatar
    All motorists are criminals - except me of course.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    Since when?

    The majority of traffic offences are just that, motoring offences for which you do not receive a criminal record which stays with you for life. The exceptions are the likes of drink driving, death by dangerous driving.

    As one of the experts on here, you should know better.

    There is a general confusion between "criminal" and "recordable". Most minor motoring offences are not recordable, but they're still criminal. In this country we only have civil and criminal justice systems - there isn't a third one for motorists. If you have the misfortune to go to court for a motoring offence, you are in the Criminal Justice system and you will find yourself in the same waiting room as the (alleged) thieves, rapists and drug-dealers.

    The National Police Records (Recordable Offences) Regulations 2000 specify those offences for which a criminal record is mandatory.

    The only non-criminal motoring "offences" are those (parking and some others) which have been specifically "decriminalised", and are dealt with by the local authorities as civil matters.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    There is a general confusion between "criminal" and "recordable". Most minor motoring offences are not recordable, but they're still criminal. In this country we only have civil and criminal justice systems - there isn't a third one for motorists. If you have the misfortune to go to court for a motoring offence, you are in the Criminal Justice system and you will find yourself in the same waiting room as the (alleged) thieves, rapists and drug-dealers.

    The National Police Records (Recordable Offences) Regulations 2000 specify those offences for which a criminal record is mandatory.

    The only non-criminal motoring "offences" are those (parking and some others) which have been specifically "decriminalised", and are dealt with by the local authorities as civil matters.

    It really is not worth expending any more time or effort with people like you.

    Look at the regulations in particular under the schedule of offences. Where does it include traffic offences under these regs?

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made
  • Santa's Avatar
    And of course - a police officer has discretion.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    It really is not worth expending any more time or effort with people like you.

    Look at the regulations in particular under the schedule of offences. Where does it include traffic offences under these regs?

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

    That's precisely my point. There's a clue in the title of the regulations - they define "recordable" offences, not criminal ones.

    Most driving offences are not recordable, so although convicted of a criminal offence, you do not get a criminal record.

    Some motoring offences are no longer criminal - that's why they use the term "decriminalised" - but all others are. It may suit the respectable middle-class speeding offender to class his offence as non-criminal, but the law doesn't.

    BTW when a poster descends to personal abuse, that is usually a sign that they have run out of logical arguments.
  • TC1474's Avatar

    BTW when a poster descends to personal abuse, that is usually a sign that they have run out of logical arguments.

    I am not descending to personal abuse, but simply making the point that for someone who is legally qualified such as you clearly are should know better, but it is not the first time you have made factual inaccurate statements.

    For the last time, the majority of offences are not criminal offences, but they are recorded (hence points on the licence) and motoring offences that are not recorded (in other words do not result in points) are not offences committed under the road traffic act, they are usually breaches of a local order or bylaw, such as for example, parking.

    So a criminal offence is not committed, a traffic offence or moving traffic offence is committed, but in any case, when it comes to a caution as laid out in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, it is in most cases spent after 30 months, and does not include any fixed penalty notice or disorder offence.

    The simple way to look at this is that if you commit a motoring offence, again with the odd exception, your name will not come up on any CRB checks, and in the main you do not have to disclose conviction of these offences.

    To be classified as a crime, the act of doing something bad (actus reus) must be usually accompanied by the intention to do something bad (mens rea), with certain exceptions. In 99% of traffic cases there is no intent, simply the act which is usually as a result of a drop in concentration or similar, and most traffic cases are dealt with ny way of fixed penalty of by summary justice rather than being indictable which is also the indication of a criminal offence.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    Beelzebub, all motoring offences for which a person is convicted are 'recordable'. They go onto a Motoring Offences file. (By whatever proper name.) I know this because almost invariably when a Magistrate hands down a Guilty verdict, usually the first question is: "Is anything known?" (Interpretes as; "Has this character got previous?") Then, a sentence is passed down relevant not only to the offence in question, but any previous convictions. I have never heard a request for Criminal convictions at a Motoring Offence hearing, or vice versa.
  • smudger's Avatar
    Like on TV, when the cops have checked somebody out, and the bloke comes back and says,.... "he is clean guv, not even a parking ticket" :D
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    To be classified as a crime, the act of doing something bad (actus reus) must be usually accompanied by the intention to do something bad (mens rea), with certain exceptions. In 99% of traffic cases there is no intent, simply the act which is usually as a result of a drop in concentration or similar, and most traffic cases are dealt with ny way of fixed penalty of by summary justice rather than being indictable which is also the indication of a criminal offence.

    But to complete your quote: "To be classified as a crime, the act of doing something bad (actus reus) must be usually accompanied by the intention to do something bad (mens rea), with certain exceptions (strict liability)"

    And "The concept of strict liability is also found in criminal law, though the same or similar concept may appear in contexts where the term itself is not used. Strict liability often applies to vehicular traffic offenses."

    There are two relevant concepts -"proper" crime and "regulatory" crime, with the inevitable grey area in between. Most motoring offences are regarded as regulatory crimes. You may find this article of interest http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2012/issue4...#_Toc336427644

    If nothing else, we may at least agree on the author's conclusion " ... it is a notoriously elusive and difficult concept." ;)
  • Dennis W's Avatar
    The reason why I asked this question is that several years ago my young son was given the choice of a speed or driver awareness course, and he claims that he was given a "caution" at the same time. Recently, he was told it would cost him £10.00 to have the caution removed from his "record" He is applying for a job and he needs to get this query sorted out accurately.

    Thank you all for your illuminating comments.
  • smudger's Avatar
    Wait till I get my reading glasses!
  • Motman's Avatar
    Only 4 posts in and she's shouting already. We've got a screamer!!
  • Snowball's Avatar
    Only 4 posts in and she's shouting already. We've got a screamer!!
    You've lost me, Motman.
    Nils illegitimus carborundum.