[Marc D]

Britain is set to block EU moves to allow speeding fines to be imposed across international borders, the Telegraph reports. Opponents of the scheme feel there is still more work to be done on these proposals clarifying the cost of the scheme to the UK and the different legal responsibilities placed on vehicle owners and drivers across the EU.

Do you agree with these arguments? Please tell us your views by posting a comment below.

To read the full story, click here.

[Snowball]

At first glance, it does seem obvious that all forms of crime should be answerable across EU borders; and motoring offences don't deserve special immunity.

However, innocent drivers must be protected from wrongful prosecution due to fallacies in the system; which we are aware that can happen. So it is proper , and rightfully expected, that the British government should refuse to comply until all risk of any miscarriage of justice is positively prevented.

It has to asked: What are the chances of clerical errors? High, I would suspect. What are the chances of cloned cars/false number plates being used? Border controls cannot prevent this. A set of number plates could be stowed for changing after the control has been cleared. Stretching the imagination? - Hmm, stranger things have happened!
What if a car was stolen whilst abroad, used for criminal purposes (including traffic violation) and later recovered? Could the traffic violation somehow get separated from the time period of the vehicle being stolen? There may be other pitfalls that I have missed.

In addition, would there be a risk of a UK court passing a verdict of 'guilty' simply to avoid the inconvenience and work involved where there was doubt? Sorry to say, but I don't think that I would trust magistrates' courts in this respect.

[Rolebama]

The High Panjandrums of the EU were not elected in any way. Therefore they should have no say whatsoever in any form of legislation, and I for one can't wait for the day when we get out of the EU.

[wagolynn]

If the EU wanted to do something useful, they could look into the validity of the speed cameras and the whole concept of on the spot fines which turns the concept of justice on its head guilty until proven innocent and a big gamble if you choose to contest the allegation.

[MrDanno]

I remember a case about 10+ years ago where a museum was sent a speeding fine for one of the vehicles in their collection. In their defence the vehicle had been sitting in the museum for many years without an engine fitted and the vehicles top speed was only half of what the claimed offence was for, Eventually after being sent the relevant photo it was clear that the Dutch registered car had the same digits on the registration plate.

Originally Posted by Rolebama

.....and I for one can't wait for the day when we get out of the EU.

+1 for that.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

If the EU wanted to do something useful, they could look into the validity of the speed cameras and the whole concept of on the spot fines.

I don't know about other mainland EU countries, but in France the speed cameras are not as prominent as ours. Admittedly, they have a warning sign some way before the camera, but the camera is lower down and usually situated on the other side of the steel safety guard rail. The box, although larger than ours, is drab grey with just a narrow band of red and white stripes around its edge.

Another thing you have to be careful with is the STOP sign at a major road. This means that your wheels must stop turning. Frequently, a gendarme will be watching out of sight at these junctions and, if your wheels don't stop, you can expect an on-the-spot fine of 90 Euros.

[mick.n]

I dont know how things are now, but in 1986 i spent 6 months touring europe working on american air force bases. Many times,when in italy, i was stopped by the carabinieri claiming i was speeding, failed to stop at a junction, etc, etc.....various other made up charges.

All nonsense of course, it was just to give a spot fine & packets of cigarettes. Its not easy to argue or try to reason when you dont fully understand the language.& paying the spot fine & 40 marlboro was the easy option.

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by mick.n

in 1886 i spent 6 months touring europe working on american air force bases.

Wow! you really are old :D

[smudger]

Geez! that's all we need, the EU on the speeding campaign now, as if there wasn't enough folk on the case already:rolleyes:

Its a well known fact that speed is not always the main cause for accidents, poor driving is more dangerous;)

[mick.n]

Originally Posted by MrDanno

Wow! you really are old :D

OOops! :D Think i had better edit that.:p

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by smudger

Its a well known fact that speed is not always the main cause for accidents, poor driving is more dangerous;)

Ah, smudger, you have to think outside the box. To catch rabbits, it's much easier to set snares in well selected spots, than to chase around fields with a shotgun. Same goes for speed cameras; much less labour-intensive and lower overheads than traffic patrols, so net revenue is greater.
When an illegal driver is caught driving dangerously, if he's got nowt he can only be imprisoned, at a cost to the public coffers. A speed camera will detect the presence of legal and illegal drivers, but they only have to chase up the legal ones; these are traceable ones, and can be screwed for additions to the public coffers.

[MrDanno]

Talking of speed traps, Does anyone else feel it is unfair for members of the public to be allowed to use police issue hand held speed guns? I think it leaves the gates open for abuse of the system.

Besides I'm not a fan of people doing jobs for free that people should be paid to do etc. It just keeps unemployment high as borough councils take advantage of free labour.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by MrDanno

Talking of speed traps, Does anyone else feel it is unfair for members of the public to be allowed to use police issue hand held speed guns? I think it leaves the gates open for abuse of the system.
Besides I'm not a fan of people doing jobs for free that people should be paid to do etc. It just keeps unemployment high as borough councils take advantage of free labour.

It's a difficult question to answer, MrDanno. Close to us is a primary school. There is a 20mph limit and flashing beacons on the approach from either side, and a crossing warden during school entry and exit times. Yet drivers have driven faster than permitted at these times, have ignored the crossing warden, and even been aggresssive or violent towards him.
If I were a parent with a child at this school, I would certainly take up an opportunity to voluntarily operate a speed gun at this location.

Throughout society there are many voluntarily run jobs where it could be argued that they deny someone a wage. Why should this be different? Because there is a sting in its tail?

Of course, we on the forum all being excellent drivers, I suppose it is hard to understand that many laws have come into force simply to tackle blatant disregard for laws already in place.

No, I don't like speed cameras mainly, if I am honest, because although I don't intentionally exceed speed limits, like most ordinary human beings I cannot guarantee that I will never accidentally 'slip into the red'. But I have seen plenty of examples that confirm their necessity.

I know that I have joined with claims that traffic cops are better than these cameras, but let's be realistic, technology will always be used plug a cost/labour gap.
Camera v. traffic cop is not that much different to PAYE v. the tax collector coming to your door. And whilst there are volunteers to do a job, they will be used to fill a gap. That's life!

[wagolynn]

I am confident that accidental or intentional speeders would respond better to a roadside lecture (without fine) from a policeman than an automatic fine. For two very good reasons, one is their journey time increased and the ignominy of being lectured in public. These warnings should be recorded, after a certain number the offender should attend a speed awareness course on pain of surrender of licence.
As to the public using speed cameras, generally speaking, they are the wrong people doing it for the wrong reasons; I have also seen several near misses caused by motorists being confronted with an anonymous member of the public pointing a ‘gun’ as they approached.
God help us when we have elected chief constables, who will have to bow and scrape to these people to get re-elected.

[ficklejade]

I don't have a passport so in that sense, this doesn't affect me. HOWEVER, if EU Courts are on a par with our Magistrates' Courts - heaven help us!

Like others, I want out of the EU! :mad:

[smudger]

Quote.."Besides I'm not a fan of people doing jobs for free that people should be paid to do etc"

Aye! and this government want the unemployed to work for £1 an hour clearing snow and so on:eek:

Wasn't here a case recently where some volunteer villagers were given a speed gun by the local police chief, to take car numbers of speeders going through their village?

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

I am confident that accidental or intentional speeders would respond better to a roadside lecture (without fine) from a policeman than an automatic fine. For two very good reasons, one is their journey time increased and the ignominy of being lectured in public. These warnings should be recorded, after a certain number the offender should attend a speed awareness course on pain of surrender of licence.
As to the public using speed cameras, generally speaking, they are the wrong people doing it for the wrong reasons; I have also seen several near misses caused by motorists being confronted with an anonymous member of the public pointing a ‘gun’ as they approached.

Sorry, wagolynn, but can't agree with this.
First point: Many drivers get repetitive fines for speed camera offences. If fines and points on the licence don't persuade them, it's a bit over-optimistic to believe a 'Dutch uncle' approach would have any effect.
Second point: These speed guns are not handed to volunteers without training, high-visibility clothing is provided and must be worn, and they are not permitted to leap out from behind a tree, etc.. Such people are no more "startling" than a police officer in similar clothing.

Hopefully, most of us don't need the 'hard man' treatment but, sadly, too many drivers do. Nothing's perfect, but I will accept clamp downs if that keeps the roads as safe as possible for me!
Even with current legislation, there are drivers who take horrendous risks on a regular basis, and some commit hit-and-run/failing to stop offences, even though they are document-legal. Imagine the increased mayhem if the police backed off towards a more mollycoddling system.

When I drive, it is always my intention not to cause grief to anyone else, even to the point of reacting to avoid another's error. In return, I expect the same consideration. Too many drivers demand the freedom from being subjected to restrictive measures, yet are not prepared to show responsible behaviour to merit having restrictions lifted.

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by smudger

Wasn't here a case recently where some volunteer villagers were given a speed gun by the local police chief, to take car numbers of speeders going through their village?

Exactly, The point is if general public are given a speed detecting device and told to write down the registration number of speeding offenders what is to stop them from writing down the registration number of a car belonging to someone they don't like?

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Sorry, wagolynn, but can't agree with this.
First point: Many drivers get repetitive fines for speed camera offences. If fines and points on the licence don't persuade them, it's a bit over-optimistic to believe a 'Dutch uncle' approach would have any effect.
Second point: These speed guns are not handed to volunteers without training, high-visibility clothing is provided and must be worn, and they are not permitted to leap out from behind a tree, etc.. Such people are no more "startling" than a police officer in similar clothing.

Hopefully, most of us don't need the 'hard man' treatment but, sadly, too many drivers do. Nothing's perfect, but I will accept clamp downs if that keeps the roads as safe as possible for me!
Even with current legislation, there are drivers who take horrendous risks on a regular basis, and some commit hit-and-run/failing to stop offences, even though they are document-legal. Imagine the increased mayhem if the police backed off towards a more mollycoddling system.

When I drive, it is always my intention not to cause grief to anyone else, even to the point of reacting to avoid another's error. In return, I expect the same consideration. Too many drivers demand the freedom from being subjected to restrictive measures, yet are not prepared to show responsible behaviour to merit having restrictions lifted.

As you point out Snowball, the present system (a constant escalation of penalties) does not work.
Police have their hats on and uniform trousers, and generally work on their own (the visible ones) rather than being two or more, as is the case locally where villagers are given speed guns.
Isn’t correcting for others mistakes and one’s own, just a normal part of driving, most vehicles I have ever seen are being driven by humans, assuming they are bothering to drive that is, therefore errors are quite likely...

[Rolebama]

I believe that for the system to work, all legislation and punishments should be standardized across all countries concerned. The problem with this is that individual countries have varying financial statuses, and monetary systems are not directly compatible - so a fine in one country would be disdainful, yet in another country could be financially crippling. (The equivalent of a £60 FPN in the Balkan states?) This would also mean countries joining would have to change their legislation on joining.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

Isn’t correcting for others mistakes and one’s own, just a normal part of driving, most vehicles I have ever seen are being driven by humans, assuming they are bothering to drive that is, therefore errors are quite likely...

Absolutely, wagolynn, but wouldn't you also add that driving a vehicle places the driver in the position of being responsible for driving to best of his/her abilities at all times? And that isn't happening. I accept we all just human beings, but I am sure that genuine 'accidents' within the confines of those responsibilities would be appreciated as normal by everybody.
It is easy to denegrate the police and government for not solving the bad road behaviour problems, but none on here (myself included) has come up with an alternative which would work. When preventive laws are tried, the powers-that-be are caught between two storms; accusations of Draconian, police-state measures on one side, and pathetic weakness on the other.
What sort of society are we? Ambulance and rescue crews called to an accident often receive both verbal and physical abuse. Are any of these miscreants drivers, or perhaps drivers of tomorrow? With such warped minds, how will they behave behind a steering wheel?
Most of us resent mob rule at soccer matches, and demand that the public are given protection against the criminals and anarchists who would wreck a civilised society. Yet, when it comes to driving, even though bad driving can (as does) kill, some strange fascination for "freedom" seems to be muddy the waters of commonsense.