[Snowball]

If the Scottish referendum should get a majority "Yes" vote, and Scotland went independent, would that part of the Union Jack which represents the cross of St Andrew be removed from the flag?
Would there be border controls requiring the producing of a valid passport in order to cross between England and Scotland?
Just an idle thought!!!

[Santa]

The consensus seems to be Yes and No.

[Hometune]

Well, it would no longer be the "United" kingdom so I suppose the blue bit has to come out. If there is a Yes vote then technically border crossing comes into being. I suppose much depends on whether Scotland is granted EU status or not.

[Dennis W]

Originally Posted by Snowball

If the Scottish referendum should get a majority "Yes" vote, and Scotland went independent, would that part of the Union Jack which represents the cross of St Andrew be removed from the flag?
Would there be border controls requiring the producing of a valid passport in order to cross between England and Scotland?
Just an idle thought!!!

We do not need a passport to get from the UK into Southern Ireland do we? A driving licence is sufficient.

[Beelzebub]

While it might be logical to change the flag, it would be a very expensive and totally pointless exercise to do so.

So far as the border is concerned, one would hope that civilisation and common sense would prevail - Dennis W draws a useful parallel with the Irish Republic.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

While it might be logical to change the flag, it would be a very expensive and totally pointless exercise to do so.

So far as the border is concerned, one would hope that civilisation and common sense would prevail - Dennis W draws a useful parallel with the Irish Republic.

Whilst agreeing with your view, Beelzebub, I have no confidence in common sense where governments are concerned, particularly if there are 'sour grapes' in the equation.

[smudger]

The thing that worries me is, how are we going to pay for all these commitments, that yon bloke Salmond is always going on about?

[Snowball]

That, smudger, is the problem for ordinary folk. These politicians have agendas that take no account of how their pipe dreams affect Joe Public. Even more worrying is the question of how many potential voters really have any true perspective of just what they are voting for, or how their decisions would affect their daily lives and/or financial security.
In addition to this, nobody seems to have a clear idea of what "sanctions" may be imposed against a "YES" vote if it was then implemented.
Anything from sour grapes by an English government to non-recognition by the EU, and everything nasty in between. I may be English, but I do have Scottish friends and am concerned for their future welfare in the event of separation from to UK.

[Hometune]

One problem I see is that Scotland is run by the Conservatives/Liberals from the centre of the universe otherwise known as London.
Yet there is just one conservative MP currently elected in Scotland so its fair to say the Scots do not like or want a Conservative government. Does it not seem absurd that in a democracy the minority-represented party is actually running the country from 400 miles away?
I think that this is the best chance the SNP have of persuading the people to vote 'YES' as I think that if there was a labour government, then it would almost certainly be a 'NO' vote.
Today, JK Rowling (Harry Potter) has donated £1m to the 'NO' campaign.

[smudger]

Aye! I saw that on the news, I just wonder what they will spend that lot on, no doubt they will squander it, rather than make good use of it.I suppose we will have to get used to that???

[Snowball]

Just returned from a caravanning holiday in France. whilst over there, we met up with an adjacent Scottish couple who had sold their business and retired early. The fellow told me that, were he still in business and a "YES" vote was carried through, he would be worried about the effects on the business.
Can't see why J K Rowling should wish to donate £1 million pounds to the "NO" lobby - she's so well-heeled that any result is unlikely to affect her.

[Hometune]

Watched BBC breakfast news yesterday and the reporter was on the Isle of Skye. 2 pairs of residents wanted the YES vote to promote their businesses. The 3rd pair of residents who were running a tearoom and gallery said they wanted a NO vote. They were English......so how do they get a vote?

[Beelzebub]

They get a vote because they're resident in Scotland and are on the electoral register. It would be very wrong if they didn't.

On the other hand, I and many millions of other Scots who live elsewhere don't get a vote, but that's a different question ...

[Santa]

Originally Posted by Hometune

Watched BBC breakfast news yesterday and the reporter was on the Isle of Skye. 2 pairs of residents wanted the YES vote to promote their businesses. The 3rd pair of residents who were running a tearoom and gallery said they wanted a NO vote. They were English......so how do they get a vote?

Of course they were the only people the BBC interviewed and there was no editing or selection involved.

[Snowball]

Typical of the BBC - to show what they think is relevant or of interest. From a business point of view, the only "apparent" facts that have been mentioned at any time are that, if Scotland goes independent, they will not be able to use the £sterling (Cameron), and that they are unlikely to be able to join the EU currency (some spokesperson in the EU). The latter is understandable when one considers the Greek and Spanish economic problems - they don't want the risk of a third crippled economy in the system. Then there is the question of banks. Does Scotland have sufficient back up of funding by their own banks, and would the UK banks boycott any support for Scottish businesses.
I think these were the main considerations by the retired business couple who I referred to in post #11.
Much of what is said or thought at present is generally conjecture or political posturing, but the Scottish people are the ones who will bear the consequences if Alec Salmon and his followers end up getting it all wrong.
On paper, it would seem that Scotland would only be separating itself to be independent from the UK, but in the world of global politics (and the associated treachery between the politicians of various "civilised" countries), who knows what disadvantages would be heaped upon Scotland, and for whatever reasons?

[smudger]

All the politicians who are banging on about the Yes vote, yet not one of them has said how they are going to pay for all these so called Good things that are supposed to happen, if they win?

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

They get a vote because they're resident in Scotland and are on the electoral register. It would be very wrong if they didn't.

On the other hand, I and many millions of other Scots who live elsewhere don't get a vote, but that's a different question ...

Its a strange situation where a couple from England who may have 'lived' there for just a year running their tearoom can vote but you and me cannot. And so far I have traced my ancestry back to the early 1700s and not an English person anywhere, but I don't have a vote. Oh well.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by smudger

All the politicians who are banging on about the Yes vote, yet not one of them has said how they are going to pay for all these so called Good things that are supposed to happen, if they win?

Exactly so, smudger. But the agenda of those pressing for the YES vote, whilst probably being a "good thing" for their own personal situation, may have no bearing upon whether it is a success or a tragic failure for the Scots in general.
And I still maintain that, with all the intricacies of an economic infrastructure, the majority of the Scottish people are not really qualified to make an informed decision on which way to vote. This problem is further worsened by the contradictory propaganda being thrust at them via the media; and Cameron's preachings do not help - since his opinions for a NO vote are biased solely on his own motives for keeping Scotland as part of the UK.
Which ever way the vote goes, I personally hope it transpires to be the correct one - no doubt there are those on both sides of Hadrian's wall who would like to see a Scottish economic melt-down - a selfish attitude when the lives of so many people could be permanently ruined.

[Hometune]

One thing that seems to be forgotten is the 'possible' Euro exit if the politicians actually keep their word and allow a referendum on it.
So, if Scotland opts to say YES and leaves the UK then they are going to try to stay in Europe. But the possibility is that England and Wales will vote to get out of Europe and if that did happen then border crossings and all that jazz would need to be set up and paid for.
If Scotland say NO then they may be forced to leave the European Union anyway? What a mess.

[Dennis W]

However, Ireland is a separate country from the UK but one doesn't need a Passport to travel from Wales to Ireland.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Dennis W

However, Ireland is a separate country from the UK but one doesn't need a Passport to travel from Wales to Ireland.

The question of whether or not a passport would be needed is not the issue, Dennis. We are talking about risks to the future of Scotland, and possibly the UK. As Hometune says, "What a mess!"
Many ordinary folk can see this "mess" in the making, so why are the likes of Alec salmon pursuing this cause for independence?
I get the impression that salmon is banking on two factors - oil revenue and the fishing industry. But oil and gas reserves are a very tenuous commodity, and will not last indefinitely. And when exploration is far out into the North Sea, Scotland will not have a legal territory to claim for such oil/gas fields. As for the fishing grounds, Scotland could face a very limited catchment area if boundary lines were drawn from points extending east and west of the border with England. All supposition I'll admit, but its amazing how even powerful politicians will behave like spiteful, spoilt little children in order to get their own way.
When it comes down to it, is the anticipated prize for independence (which could well be a booby prize) really worth Scotland battling to separate itself from the UK?

[smudger]

Another point about all this, what is the view amongst the Yes voters, about immigration? Scotland is now full to bursting, and yon bloke Salmond wants even more of them?I've read that Norway, Finland and a few other smaller countries, have controlled their immigration problems, but Britain seems to have kept the flood gates open?There is quite a lot of bad feelings here in Fife, on the job front, where a lot of younger folk who are desperate for a job, can't get one, as lot of the companies tend to employ folk from Easter Europe, as they will work for less that the minimum wage?

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by smudger

Another point about all this, what is the view amongst the Yes voters, about immigration? Scotland is now full to bursting, and yon bloke Salmond wants even more of them?I've read that Norway, Finland and a few other smaller countries, have controlled their immigration problems, but Britain seems to have kept the flood gates open?There is quite a lot of bad feelings here in Fife, on the job front, where a lot of younger folk who are desperate for a job, can't get one, as lot of the companies tend to employ folk from Easter Europe, as they will work for less that the minimum wage?

The reasoning of politicians puzzles me too, smudger. We have just returned from a caravanning holiday in France. On the way out, and along with other outfits, at passport control I was required to accompany a border official whilst he checked our caravan (for stowaways?) and was asked a few questions about what we were carrying in the van. Car and caravan were subjected to an under-floor inspection mirror check.
On the way back into the UK, a quick passport examination by the guy sitting in the booth, and a wave through. Says it all, doesn't it?

[Santa]

Originally Posted by Snowball

The reasoning of politicians puzzles me too, smudger. We have just returned from a caravanning holiday in France. On the way out, and along with other outfits, at passport control I was required to accompany a border official whilst he checked our caravan (for stowaways?) and was asked a few questions about what we were carrying in the van. Car and caravan were subjected to an under-floor inspection mirror check.
On the way back into the UK, a quick passport examination by the guy sitting in the booth, and a wave through. Says it all, doesn't it?

May be cooperation. After all, there is no need to check at both ends is there. But who knows?

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Santa

May be cooperation. After all, there is no need to check at both ends is there. But who knows?

I think you may have misunderstood me, Santa. It wasn't a case of checking at both ends. Going out of the UK to France, the border control check was thorough. Caravan checked internally, and car and caravan mirror-searched underneath. And it was by a team of several officers. When they apologised for the delay, they seemed pleased when I congratulated them on their thoroughness.
Coming back into the UK, a quick passport check by man in booth, and waved through. My comments on the lax attitude to incoming travellers was greeted with a sarcastic remark that I may be lucky further on - he meant a single guy standing at a "Y"-junction; waving to go right for carrying on, or left to go into the search sheds.

[smudger]

Aye! It's a sad fact of modern life, when I was a kid at school, the word " terrorist" didn't exist, neither did "cost effectiveness" or the word, unemployment?We thought the word, "racist" was some kind if race, that you could enter?Now we suffer with, political correctness, human rights and health and safety,......Oh! God, I'm depressed now, stop the world, I want to get off......winking smiley!

[Santa]

OK, we didn't have terrorists, but we did have 'anarchists' which were pretty much the same thing. The IRA has been a feature of most of my adult life.

'Racists' became significant back in the 60s when I can remember seeing that sign on the door of digs - No blacks, No Irish, No dogs.

And I think that the 'unemployed' who walked the route from Jarrow to London in 1936 (before my time) could tell us all a thing or two about hardship.

Most of the things that are ridiculed as PC are not all that bad. Do we want to see women paid less than men for the same work; how about employers sacking people on the spot with no comeback? Maybe we should take the babies away from unmarried mothers, and people who are part of the 'establishment' like Harris and Saville, should get away with it.

[Snowball]

The rise of the PC brigade has certainly provided a lot of jobs for certain groups of the 'Political Police'. I spent my life in the engineering industry, and there were loads of sayings that would now get you into trouble for using them. We have a relative who works in a government department, and there are rules about what objects cannot be placed on desks, or how fellow employees can be addressed. Reporting anyone for flouting the rules is encouraged - an innocent quip or banter in the wrong place could mean losing one's job.
Different to the multi-cultural shop floor of our work place. Workers of various races would exchange banter that the PC brigade would be horrified to hear; but those same workers would be the first to spring to the defence of the subjects of their banter. Agreed, some nastiness has been curtailed, but all people of different cultures have paid a price in losing the freedom of innocent racial humour.
Whether this is a good or a bad thing is really down to the view of the individual, and that may be governed to some degree by that individual's own personal experiences. However, I do believe that the agenda of the PC brigade differs greatly from what ordinary people of all cultures expected of the laws that developed.

[Dennis W]

Back in the 1960s, my cousin was trying to find digs in either Bristol or Derby, He phoned up and was negotiating a room. The Landlady asked him whether he was black to which he replied in a West Indian accent "No maam, I sure aint" and hung up on her.

[smudger]

Snowball, I hear what you are saying, but my meaning was, that the whole P/C, Health & Safety and Human Rights thing, can, and has, in some cases gone too far.I always get angry when I see that happening, as a lot of brave people have gave their lives in two world wars, to defend our rights to free speech, and I personally take that to heart, when. I see that being denied?