[colin1960]

We have just put a deposit down on a used Toyota Yaris. We thought this was a private sale (via G******) and looked at the car on the seller's private house driveway. But when we have come to sort out the collection details for car tax the seller told us he runs a paint-spraying company and has been using the car as a temporary customers' car and has also running to and from work in it himself for the past 4 months - yet he is not registered as keeper. When he fills in the log-book he has told us he will fill in the yellow section as a 'trader/dealer' not as the keeper. As far as we could see on the logbook the keeper is still registered to the car's original owner.

So, my question is should he be selling the car as a 'private seller' as per the ad, or as a 'trader' having loaned the car out to various customers during his 'ownership' depite not actually being the registered owner? (Is it legit to loan a car out without being the oregistered owner/keeper? Who would be liabel for any speeding or parking fines during this time?)

And are our consumer rights any different if he sells the car as a private seller or as a trader?

We have looked up online and can find no defintive description for what quantifies a 'trader' or a 'dealer' and want to know what's what before we pay the balance! From the seller's side what benefits are there to the way he is trying to do things - is it legal? He seems like a decent guy but we are totally confused and clueless!

.

[Hometune]

Under the Sale of Goods Act a trader is the same as a dealer. You have full protection under consumer law.
To prove he is a trader you need to show that he sells several cars a year and advertises them online or with For Sale boards. So you would need to print off any ads you come across or take pictures of his other cars. If he is telling you he will fill in the yellow trader/dealer section this is a warning that he is most likely a trader.
You can check if the car is currently taxed: https://www.vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/
It is not unlawful for traders or dealers to leave the previous keeper's name and address on the registration document. This was originally designed to prevent the history showing a lot of previous keepers otherwise every time a car was part exchanged, the trader would put his name on the V5c and the history would show twice as many previous owners.
You should be very wary of doorstep traders who try to hide the fact they really are car dealers and not private sales. If there is an issue he will say he sold it privately and you have no consumer protection at all.
I was tricked into the same position as yourself then discovered the car was a write off, bought in Scotland, sold to me and found to be totally unroadworthy when I properly examined it. I only got my money back when the police visited him and threatened to charge him with selling an unroadworthy car. The Dept of Transport carried out an MOT and closed the garage that issued the test certificate the previous week. A lot of hassle you can do without.
My advice is to get the deposit back and go elsewhere. If you have problems with him contact Consumer Protection: https://www.gov.uk/consumer-protection-rights
If he really becomes a lot of trouble you can report him for selling cars from his home to the planning enforcement section of the council where he lives saying he is carrying on a business without planning permission and paying the additional business rates. If he is a trader the Inland Revenue probably don't know about him either.
There are ways and means.

[Beelzebub]

He's a trader. You therefore have the Sale Of Goods Act protection, but you'll have a lot of hassle if/when you want to use it. I'd agree with Hometune - walk away.

As for "seems a decent guy", what do you expect? A striped jersey and a mask?

[colin1960]

Thanks Hometune

We won't have time to find out whether he is a trader or not from looking at records or taking photos - and he is 30 miles away from us so difficult to watch.

All we want to know is whether he is allowed to pass on a car using the yellow section as a trader. We have tackled him over whether he will state on the form that he is a trader (ie put down a business address rather than his home address) but he hasn't given us a straight answer - he starts to waffle on about how it's all OK and not to worry. We have no experience of buying used cars privately so don't feel we can argue.

But surely if he was a private seller he would have transferred the keeper details into his own name when he bought the car and not kept it unregistered while using it for his business customer care and personal runabout? Even as a trader surely it can't be alright to share a car with his customers that isn't registered to him? If one of his customers had an accident or speeding fine who would be liable? The previous owner?

The car isn't taxed btw, he said that had just run out which was one of the reasons he was selling; but we have checked online and the MOTs are all present and correct and the car does only have only one previous owner.

We are totally confused! But thanks for your help.

.

[colin1960]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

He's a trader. You therefore have the Sale Of Goods Act protection, but you'll have a lot of hassle if/when you want to use it. I'd agree with Hometune - walk away.

As for "seems a decent guy", what do you expect? A striped jersey and a mask?

Thanks Beelzebub

I can't believe there are so many pitfalls in buying a used car privately! It's not just about the car itself but the sale/tax/registration process is unclear. We have tried looking at the DVLA and other websites but none say definitively what we should expect to the difference to be between buying from someone selling as a trader or individual.

So much comes down to trust, yet the majority of sites say 'buyer beware' as if that covers everything!

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by colin1960

All we want to know is whether he is allowed to pass on a car using the yellow section as a trader. We have tackled him over whether he will state on the form that he is a trader (ie put down a business address rather than his home address) but he hasn't given us a straight answer - he starts to waffle on about how it's all OK and not to worry. We have no experience of buying used cars privately so don't feel we can argue.

But surely if he was a private seller he would have transferred the keeper details into his own name when he bought the car and not kept it unregistered while using it for his business customer care and personal runabout? Even as a trader surely it can't be alright to share a car with his customers that isn't registered to him? If one of his customers had an accident or speeding fine who would be liable? The previous owner?

You need to sit back and relax. A dealer/trader does NOT have to register a car in his possession. Yes, he can lend it out to who he likes at any time so long as it is taxed, Mot'd and insured. The driver is always responsible for motoring offences and the owner too in some circumstances. If the police wanted to locate him for say an accident they could contact the original owner, they can check the Motor Insurers Database and they can also list it to be flagged up on ANPR cameras.
Some private buyers do not change the details which is an offence but for which virtually nobody is punished these days. It is the way of the world. They hope to avoid speeding fines and often do not tax or insure their car. This happens all the time in major cities.

Registering a car and owning a car are two entirely different things. My partner is the registered keeper of one of my cars - V5c - but I am the owner - sales invoice.

You obviously are having doubts due to your inexperience in buying a car but you are right to be concerned especially as he is waffling about the address. If he in fact is a private owner he is not allowed to sell the car using the yellow section. You can phone DVLA for clarification.

[colin1960]

Thanks again!

We don't feel very relaxed, we feel like we are about to fall for something that we should have been aware of and will end up with someone else's speeding tickets or tax arrears!

So if our seller decides he will fill in the yellow box and he is NOT a registered trader is he breaking the law in some way? Surely the DVLA will know this when he sends the yellow section off to them? But where does that leave us if he has sold a car on incorrectly?

Thanks again for your help :-)

[Santa]

Sounds like this guy wants the best of both worlds. As a private seller he benefits from the reduced liability if the car develops a fault. In fact, so long as he doesn't lie about anything then even if the engine falls out on the way home, you would have trouble getting recompense. As a trader/dealer he is fully liable for at least six months for any fault that existed on the car when you bought it.

Buying a car from someone 30 miles away can also be a problem, even from a legitimate dealer. If it develops a fault and you have to take it back.... You can see the problem.

My advice is to walk away - even if it looks like a good deal. There are dozens of sad stories on this forum alone where people have lost money they can't afford on a dud used car.

A proper dealer will charge more, but you have a lot more protection. Not just the law, but the dealer's reputation as well.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by colin1960

Thanks again!

We don't feel very relaxed, we feel like we are about to fall for something that we should have been aware of and will end up with someone else's speeding tickets or tax arrears!

So if our seller decides he will fill in the yellow box and he is NOT a registered trader is he breaking the law in some way? Surely the DVLA will know this when he sends the yellow section off to them? But where does that leave us if he has sold a car on incorrectly?

Thanks again for your help :-)

You are right not to be relaxed.

The guy has admitted to being a trader, but is trying to tell you it's a private sale, so you are about to hand over a large sum of money to someone whom you know is dishonest.

Walk away - there are millions of used cars out there!

[colin1960]

You've confirmed my thoughts on it - I suspect we'll lose the deposit but at least we'll have peace of mind.

Thanks again - your comments and experience are much appreciated :-)

[Hometune]

Where possible, do online searches for the seller's reviews. Most garages will be listed so you can then make your mind up. Obviously some dodgy traders may not be there as they will keep changing their name or moving around. If you can get any recommendations from close family or friends who have had good service then maybe the way to go. Good luck anyway.

[colin1960]

Yes - unfortunately we live in the wilds of Norfolk aka nowhere (so a reliable car is essential) and our relatives are all down south.

We had a very good car sales place not far from us which used to be a Ford dealer - then Ford decided it wasn't doing well enough and took its licence away so its just petrol sales now. I don't suppose it will be long before that is a hand car wash :-(

I think unscrupulous sellers up here know they can get away with poor service and dubious tactics because they know the local Police and Trading standards are already stretched to the limit.

Thank goodness for forums like this though! I gather it's not RAC who administer it (though they were happy to harvest my personal details for their data purposes!) so huge thanks again to everyone who contributes here.

[Santa]

Actually, it is 'administered' by the RAC. You might see the odd post from Mike Gray who rules the site with a rod of feathers.

[colin1960]

My wife came home and has spoken to people at work about this and she seems to think it's all OK!

So she has just spoken to the seller asking if he can clarify whether he is a trader or a private seller and his answer was that he bought the car for his paint-spraying business to use as a courtesy car and therefore didn't register as it's keeper because he knew he would want want to sell it again later. So the yellow part of the VSC form was sent back to DVLA (apparently it was filled in by him and not the previous keeper?) and the DVLA will therefore have a record of him as the Trade owner. But he is not selling the car as a trade sale, it is being sold privately! And all the remaining VSC paperwork is still in the name of the previous one lady owner, with gaps he will fill in to look as if she were selling it directly to us He says this is all quite normal.

Is there some way we can find out from DVLA whether he is telling the truth or could it be possible he had never sent off the yellow part of the logbook and none of us would be any the wiser?

And as a paint-sprayer business how does he get to be recognised as a trader by the DVLA? Is there a test or a register? Or can any business buy and sell their fleet cars without having to become the 'keeper' for DVLA purposes? If that's the case then what's to stop us all registering and just passing cars around instead of 'keeping' them?

I'm thinking of buying a bicycle instead! :-)

[Dennis W]

Originally Posted by colin1960

We have just put a deposit down on a used Toyota Yaris. We thought this was a private sale (via G******) and looked at the car on the seller's private house driveway. But when we have come to sort out the collection details for car tax the seller told us he runs a paint-spraying company and has been using the car as a temporary customers' car and has also running to and from work in it himself for the past 4 months - yet he is not registered as keeper. When he fills in the log-book he has told us he will fill in the yellow section as a 'trader/dealer' not as the keeper. As far as we could see on the logbook the keeper is still registered to the car's original owner.

So, my question is should he be selling the car as a 'private seller' as per the ad, or as a 'trader' having loaned the car out to various customers during his 'ownership' depite not actually being the registered owner? (Is it legit to loan a car out without being the oregistered owner/keeper? Who would be liabel for any speeding or parking fines during this time?)

And are our consumer rights any different if he sells the car as a private seller or as a trader?

We have looked up online and can find no defintive description for what quantifies a 'trader' or a 'dealer' and want to know what's what before we pay the balance! From the seller's side what benefits are there to the way he is trying to do things - is it legal? He seems like a decent guy but we are totally confused and clueless!

.

There are flaws and inconsistencies in his story. Has he got the right to sell the car?

I would ask him to give you a written warranty.

Otherwise walk away before it costs you any more money.

[smudger]

Quote......."I would ask him to give you a written warranty.".......................Dennis, nobody, not even a trader, will do that?...............it was pointless even saying that?

[colin1960]

If he sent off the yellow part of the VSC form himself - and not the previous owner - then we only have his word for it that the DVLA have been informed he has the car. And possession of the VSC is not proof of ownership.

How can we find out if he has the right to sell the car?

We haven't seen any evidence of the previous sale, all the paper work is still in the previous owner's name.

He is not selling it as a trader so don't suppose he will be able to provide any sort of warranty.

:-(

[Dennis W]

Has the vehicle been involved in an accident, do you know?

[Beelzebub]

Colin

You asked for advice. Four people have advised you to walk away!

[colin1960]

I totally agree but was giving my wife's work friends the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks again for all your advice, you've all been a great help.

[Dennis W]

Have a look at www.direct.gov.uk/buyerbeware

[Hometune]

1. Please please please do not answer Dennis. He is a troll on here and will confuse you more than ever.
2. 4 of us who have been answering questions like this for years all agree what you should do.
3. You appear to really want this car though?
4. Anyone can call themselves a trader - just supply an invoice with Mickey Mouse Garage etc and you're off. At one time many years ago if you sold 4 or more cars in a year you were classed as a trader.
5. He is a car repairer so producing headed invoices will convince DVLA he is entitled to be a trader.
6. He cannot sell the car to you as a private sale as he has already told DVLA he is a trader!!! (the yellow part)
7. As said above he wants to cut it both ways. i.e. no warranty as a private sale. Why? Does he know the car has a serious fault?
8. If we cannot talk you out of buying it then you must insist on it being sold as a trader car so will come with full consumer protection, not his 6 month or 3 month warranty. The law is on your side.
9. If he refuses then ask for your deposit back as you have been misled and therefore no contract exists.
10. Go online and look at Autotrader and save us all from future grief!!!

[Santa]

Please let us know how you get on with this