[ficklejade]

I happen to be a member of a camping/caravanning forum and it is very clear that the cost of fuel is having a detrimental effect on many people's holiday/short breaks intentions. Whilst this might be a cause for a cheer for those here who are regularly inconvenienced by the less considerate caravanner/motorhomer, it is also a major cause of concern for those who depend on these visitors and that's not just sites but shops, cafes, restaurants and attractions. A further issue - one which many who live in rural areas will know only too well - is that it will make it all the harder for local filling stations/garages to keep going. At this rate, we could be facing up to another Highland Clearances!

Snowball, as you're the only person I'm aware of who tows/has had a motorhome, it would be interesting to have your views, please.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by ficklejade

I happen to be a member of a camping/caravanning forum and it is very clear that the cost of fuel is having a detrimental effect on many people's holiday/short breaks intentions. Whilst this might be a cause for a cheer for those here who are regularly inconvenienced by the less considerate caravanner/motorhomer, it is also a major cause of concern for those who depend on these visitors and that's not just sites but shops, cafes, restaurants and attractions. A further issue - one which many who live in rural areas will know only too well - is that it will make it all the harder for local filling stations/garages to keep going. At this rate, we could be facing up to another Highland Clearances!

Snowball, as you're the only person I'm aware of who tows/has had a motorhome, it would be interesting to have your views, please.

Hi, ficklejade. You've kinda hit a few hot potatoes there, so not quite sure from what aspect you want me to comment upon.

Considerate caravanning: I try not to be a pain to other road users, but surrounding conditions dictate what I do. I can't shrink the 'van, so I like to think of myself as a large lorry. I'm no more a nuisance than one of those.:D
Being a caravanner, we tend to take packed-lunch picnics with us, and cook alfresco at the 'van in the evenings. One reason is that I like a couple of glasses of wine with the meal, and will not drink and drive.
Diesel: Always bought at supermarket stations for that extra bit of saving, and never allow the tank to drop low enough to force me into one of the costlier garage forecourts.

We might do a single 4-week trip instead of two 2-week ones, which cuts four towing journeys into two, so gives a good fuel saving there.
We also go outside peak holiday times, which allows us to take advantage of lower pitch fees.
As N.T. members, we visit quite a number of these houses and gardens so, after paying our annual membership, we don't pay out much there either.

I'd quite happily comment on any aspect you think I have missed, but I am beginning to feel that our camping lifestyle isn't one that liberally spreads wealth in the areas that we visit.

BTW, to which camping forum do you contibute?

[MrDanno]

I have to agree with Snowball here that most caravan owners tend to spend little in the way of restaurants. Maybe they spend a bit in the shops and supermarkets.

What I have noticed is the motorways seem to be quieter and cars are travelling a little slower than before.

[tommytwotanks]

what i have noticed is that i seem to be seeing more of these motor-homes with small cars being towed behind, ie smart car, ford ka, nissan micra, maybe it's so they dont have to tackle town/city car parks with a 25 foot monster, which must be a nightmare trying to find somewhere to park or turn in confined places

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by tommytwotanks

what i have noticed is that i seem to be seeing more of these motor-homes with small cars being towed behind, ie smart car, ford ka, nissan micra, maybe it's so they dont have to tackle town/city car parks with a 25 foot monster, which must be a nightmare trying to find somewhere to park or turn in confined places

We have owned motorhomes in the past. Very good in France, as the parking facilities cater well for them in many areas. Different matter altogether in the UK. The small car towed behind is a necessity here if you want to get around with reasonable freedom. But, since the towing frame for this type of setup has not been type-tested in any EU country, it is not fully legal. For example, the French police have stopped these outfits and made the owner unhitch the towed car (probably happened in other EU countries, too). If only one person on board can drive, you're in a bit of a spot!

One of our reasons for going back to a caravan. Once the caravan is set up on pitch, it's back to normal solo driving. A lot cheaper, too, on fuel.

[Andy2009]

Personally, I'm more concerned for people, like me, who are struggling to afford the petrol to get to work and back, never mind go on holidays. Sorry, but unless you are a pikey (and I begrudge classing their existence as necessary), motorhomes are a luxury.

[smudger]

I think the cost of camping and caravanning has gone right up in recent years. Way back in my younger days and my kids were young, my first wife and I used to go camping, but not towing the caravan, we used to just rent them for the duration.

It was a cheap holiday really, and a good way of giving the kids a break, and we had our own car to go sightseeing the local area.

Last year we got the chance to go with one of my wife's sisters and he husband, as a wee holiday for my wife, as she had just got out of hospital after being gravely ill.

By the time we added up all the costs involved, we could have gone to Spain for the same money?:eek:

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Andy2009

Personally, I'm more concerned for people, like me, who are struggling to afford the petrol to get to work and back, never mind go on holidays. Sorry, but unless you are a pikey (and I begrudge classing their existence as necessary), motorhomes are a luxury.

This is a bit insulting, and typical of the narrow-minded attitude that reflects badly on British people.
Motorhomes are indeed a luxury that many cannot afford, but a great many of their owners (particularly at the top end) are far less likely to deserve the 'pikey' category than you, Andy, or myself. Some very wealthy peolpe are motorhome-based holidaymakers.
As far as motorhome enthusiasts go, the continentals are way ahead of the game compared to us in the UK.
And those who take more traditional holidays should remember this. If all motorhome, caravanning and camping enthusiasts gave up the pastime for a traditional holiday, getting a reservation would be significantly more difficult, and hoteliers and the like would quickly squeeze even more cash out of the tourists.
Knocking the way of life of others is a first step to discovering shortcomings of oneself.:D

[MrDanno]

I can never understand peoples views about caravans being a problem on the roads, The vast majority of people that tow caravans keep them in very good working order and are reasonably good drivers.
Like all road users you cannot tar them all with the same brush.

For those people that seem to think slower moving vehicles on the motorway are a problem, Do remember there are overtaking lanes if you move to the right.

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by Snowball

This is a bit insulting, and typical of the narrow-minded attitude that reflects badly on British people.
Motorhomes are indeed a luxury that many cannot afford, but a great many of their owners (particularly at the top end) are far less likely to deserve the 'pikey' category than you, Andy, or myself. Some very wealthy peolpe are motorhome-based holidaymakers.
As far as motorhome enthusiasts go, the continentals are way ahead of the game compared to us in the UK.
And those who take more traditional holidays should remember this. If all motorhome, caravanning and camping enthusiasts gave up the pastime for a traditional holiday, getting a reservation would be significantly more difficult, and hoteliers and the like would quickly squeeze even more cash out of the tourists.
Knocking the way of life of others is a first step to discovering shortcomings of oneself.:D

This a rather high-handed statement!

Andy 2009 was simply making the comment and his personal view that a motorhome, is to him, a luxury. I definitely agree. These machines are very expensive to buy and/or convert, and their fuel consumption is quite poor due to the gearing and weight. This is what I understand to be Ficklejade's point in this thread. Either towing a caravan or driving a motorhome is going to be more expensive due to fuel costs rising.

Andy2009's other comment is his personal view. All I can say is that unless you have lived adjacent to, or had close contact with the 'travelling community', maybe this is not such a narrow minded view.

Sorry Snowball, but the last sentence is not worthy of a response.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by smudger

I think the cost of camping and caravanning has gone right up in recent years. Way back in my younger days and my kids were young, my first wife and I used to go camping, but not towing the caravan, we used to just rent them for the duration.

It was a cheap holiday really, and a good way of giving the kids a break, and we had our own car to go sightseeing the local area.

Last year we got the chance to go with one of my wife's sisters and he husband, as a wee holiday for my wife, as she had just got out of hospital after being gravely ill.

By the time we added up all the costs involved, we could have gone to Spain for the same money?:eek:

I have to agree with you, smudger, that the cheaper, camping-based holiday has significantly increased in cost. Partly, in the UK, this has been due to high demand for limited pitch vacancies; particularly in high season. Being retired, we can avoid this to a degree by going in low or mid-season. We also take our main holiday in France. By avoiding July and August, and buying Camping Cheques, this year gets us good sites with swimming pool at £13.95 per night. There is no need to book in advance, so freedom to roam is still there, and even more savings can be made if staying for a week, or two weeks, at most camp sites. This is by getting free nights (e,g., 6 =7 and 11=14). Also, as we go for 7 weeks, the cost of the tunnel (£193 return) plus £200 approx. personal and breakdown insurance comes to only an additional £8 per night approx. Therefore, overall, a cost of about £22 per night with swimming pool is generally better than in the UK. Other costs (food, fuel, etc.) apply whether at home or in mainland EU.
I suppose the biggest plus with caravanning is that, having our living accommodation on the towball, there are no nasty surprises like those which frequently get onto programmes like Watchdog.

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Hometune

This a rather high-handed statement!

Andy2009's other comment is his personal view. All I can say is that unless you have lived adjacent to, or had close contact with the 'travelling community', maybe this is not such a narrow minded view.

Sorry Snowball, but the last sentence is not worthy of a response.

No more high-handed than the 'pikey' comment. Personal views are one thing; being personal is quite another matter.
And people who normally reside in houses, but use motorhomes or touring caravans for their holidays are not members of "the travelling community". They are normal people whose method of holiday travel happens to be in a different form.
If you pigeon-hole people then tar them with a 'badge' simply because of how they pursue their leisure time, you are risking causing offence, and have to expect a caustic response.

In actual fact, just as you may sometimes hear of neighbours you are glad not to be next to, so caravanners occasionally meet the same problem. The difference is, campsite owners and wardens soon eject troublemakers off site.
Conversely, I have seen perfectly respectable campers who, because their oufit, though clean and cared for, have been snubbed by others with sumptuously new outfits.
Many years ago, when we first started caravanning, I was setting up my ancient (but clean) caravan on a site at Charmouth, when the fellow with a new van on the next pitch asked me to move to another pitch. Now that's hurtful snobbery!
We have progressed to a modern caravan, with end bathroom and all the major mod. cons. (You need them when you are old:D). But we take people as we find them; and are always ready to help anyone with a problem; whatever the age of their outfit. People, like books, should not be judged by their cover.:)

[ficklejade]

Thank you, Snowball, you did answer my overall query. I remember when caravanning we would buy groceries, meat and fish locally, get the odd takeaway, use cafes etc. but it now seems that by and large many caravanners/motorhomers stock up with food and spend the minimum possible locally. Tenters seem to stick with the old ways, despite EHU and fridges etc. I was looking at it from the point of view of the local economy, not glamour. I couldn't justify (as a singleton camper) either a van or a motorhome, although I admit to hankering after kitting out an off-roader as a campervan for the rallies! I've not got a problem with filling up at cheaper places - I always try to ensure I get back on island with both tanks as full as possible. (It was bliss to fill up at £1.349/l on Sunday, rather than £1.469!) The concern, throughout a lot of the Highlands is that the local populace cannot keep a filling station going and if visitors don't come and buy fuel whilst there, then there is a huge risk to communities.

Nor did I mean to be insulting about caravans - as I've said on other threads, caravan-towers tend to be much more considerate; big motorhomers less so - at least on our Scottish Highlands roads. If caravanners can spot a long queue behind them and pull in to let the queue past, why can't motorhomers?

Quite simply, if people do not come on camping holidays because of fuel costs, then their money - even if it is just the pitch fee - is lost to the community. I'll be honest, motorhomers aren't too popular here - part of the attraction is a guess the freedom to park up where you like - we have had too many just dumping litter, grey water and worse - same with the irresponsible wild campers! It's always the bad ones that give a group a bad name.

Pardon my ignorance, people, but what's a "pikey" - not an expression I'm familiar with :o!

[Snowball]

Hi, ficklejade. As described in 'Wikipedia', pikey is a pejorative slang word used mainly in the UK to refer to Irish Travellers, gypsies, and people of a low social class.
As such, and whether intentional or not, it conveyed a presumption that motorhome owners were of a low, social class. The connotation that this extends to those with touring caravans cannot be ignored; which is why I expressed criticism. Please be aware that my criticism was aimed at this specific remark; not at yourself, or anyone else on the thread.

If a poster makes comments with wild abandon, he/she has to bear the resultant flak. I agree that there are times when subject matter is so appalling as to make posters feel that a tasteless response is deserved. But going down this road also brings with it a requirement of verbal self-control. In the context used, and although I don't think the poster was being intentionally impolite, I believe it would have been better had it not been made, because it is too subjective.

[smudger]

I suppose its just the same with every other fact in life, it is always a small minority that spoil things for the majority.

So we cant really paint them all with the same brush;)

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by Snowball

Hi, ficklejade. As described in 'Wikipedia', pikey is a pejorative slang word used mainly in the UK to refer to Irish Travellers, gypsies, and people of a low social class.
As such, and whether intentional or not, it conveyed a presumption that motorhome owners were of a low, social class.

Oh dear you are very touchy Snowball. I did NOT read Andy's post as having a go to the likes of yourself, simply a jibe at the 'pikeys' as he described them.. I cannot possibly see how you are taking offence. On the contrary, he was suggesting that motorhomes were expensive items and that he was finding it hard just to get to work due to fuel costs etc. This seems to me to be in agreement with Ficklejade's original post and all the others she has made about rising fuel costs. So how you make the connection of expensive motorhomes with low social class is beyond me???

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Andy2009

Personally, I'm more concerned for people, like me, who are struggling to afford the petrol to get to work and back, never mind go on holidays. Sorry, but unless you are a pikey (and I begrudge classing their existence as necessary), motorhomes are a luxury.

Nothing to do with being touchy, hometune. But the wording can be read more than one way. I did make reservations in my last post that it may not have been a deliberate taunt, but Andy2009 hasn't replied to that.
I would point out that, where derogatory comments are made, response is permitted and can reasonably be expected. What does puzzle me is your involvement in this. Has some aspect of what was said touched on your own feelings, or is it merely a stab at stirring things up a bit?:confused:

[MrDanno]

Well, I think Andy2009 was a little confused in his writing of the statement because I've never seen pikey's with motorhomes. They usually have caravans which are most likely stolen like everything else they seem to have possession of.

Going back on track of fuel costs, It is effecting everyone that uses it, Even people who don't buy the stuff themselves see the change in the price they pay for anything that is transported by road - Food, Clothes, Household goods.

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by Snowball

What does puzzle me is your involvement in this. Has some aspect of what was said touched on your own feelings, or is it merely a stab at stirring things up a bit?:confused:

Why should my involvement in this puzzle you? Is this now your personal domain and no one else is allowed to join in? I do not see how you can make assertions at my stirring things up?

What really confuses me Snowball, is that no one has made any bad comment whatsoever about caravans or motorhomes. No one at all except maybe the presenters of Top Gear. Perhaps you have lost your sense of humour for a moment?
Andy's post is perfectly clear to me. He takes no issue with you, your caravan or motorhome. All he says is he cannot afford them which this post is all about. Isn't it? The other comment says that unless you are a traveller - and they need a caravan or motorhome for their lifestyle - a motorhome is a luxury. I fail to see how that is a slight on your situation.

As for stirring things up a bit, no, you are well off the mark. This is a public forum and until someone else says otherwise, I will continue to post my views. All i have done is share Andy's views and you simply do not like it. Well, as you will see since you wrote your remarks, MrDanno has expressed a forthright opinion on the pikey/travellers/gypsies groups. I wonder if you will take him on like you have done with me?

[Mike Gray]

Let's not let this descend into bickering (it hasn't, but it looks like it might!) :)

[wagolynn]

Relative to the original post, as MrDanno says everyone is suffering, the comforting thought is in the longer term it is unlikely to get better. We have undervalued energy since the industrial revolution, building lifestyles based on cheep energy and credit, yet we all know/knew it had/has to come to an end.
In my working days, as a meter reader in Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire, I was amazed at the number of people who had moved into the country without a thought to the costs both fiscal and social. It is a very hard lesson to learn done the hard way.

[smudger]

Aye! it was the high cost of fuel that made us go for that wee car we have just bought, as we are both disabled and living on benefits, so we have a tight budget?

If I was on my own, I wouldn't be able to afford to use my mobility allowance on a car, that's why we did what we did. ;)

[ficklejade]

Thanks for the terminological explanation - we live in a very diverse but small kingdom! Locally, they're known as tinks - but even some of them are good value!

I really didn't mean to cause trouble by my post; the reason I asked Snowball for his views is that he's the only one on here that I know for sure is a regular camper like me and - in view of other comments about fuel cost impinging on everything, I thought I'd ask people's opinions and Snowball's in particular as I'm a tenter and he's had a m/h and now a caravan. TBH, I don't care a hoot about expensive/cheap - what I do care about is that something that is perceived as a "cheap" holiday - camping in the broadest sense of the word - is being affected by high fuel prices with consequent knock-on effects on communities.

Andy, I'm not ignoring your plight about getting to/from work; my odd couple of nights away are, if you like, my weekends off from work and every single one of the 17 I've got this year involves meticulous planning over meals - Smudger has a harder time than I - it's no fun caring for someone almost full time and getting no money for it either because you get a pension yourself. You're right, everyone is being hit. I was not knocking you.

[smudger]

Ah! I wasn't complaining about any posts FJ, and your right, it is hard being a full time carer, but in our case, things are made worse due to Mk2s kids(well they re all adults now) but they don't behave like adults?

The amount of times they come here and upset her is unreal:mad:

At least my two daughters cut me off completely after the divorce, some 20 years ago, so I know where I stand with them. It transpires that her kids have "tolerated" me all these years.
Still, at least we will get peace and quiet now, that have stopped coming to see their Mum, and all this happened because we bought that wee Smart car:confused:

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

Relative to the original post, as MrDanno says everyone is suffering, the comforting thought is in the longer term it is unlikely to get better. We have undervalued energy since the industrial revolution, building lifestyles based on cheep energy and credit, yet we all know/knew it had/has to come to an end.
In my working days, as a meter reader in Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire, I was amazed at the number of people who had moved into the country without a thought to the costs both fiscal and social. It is a very hard lesson to learn done the hard way.

I think much of the blame for that has to be placed on previous government urges to "be mobile and go where the work is!"
That's the trouble with governments; they make comments to 'fit the moment', then later refuse to appreciate their own contributions to problems eventually arising.

[Hometune]

Originally Posted by ficklejade

I really didn't mean to cause trouble by my post;

what I do care about is that something that is perceived as a "cheap" holiday - camping in the broadest sense of the word - is being affected by high fuel prices with consequent knock-on effects on communities.
.

Fj, you haven't caused any trouble, just an energetic discussion!
The second quote about tents and tenters coincided with a long lost school friend sending me some photos of us camping in the late 60s with the Scouts. From memory, as Venture scouts we had to organise camps for weekends and that included transport, food etc. We did not help the local economies very much as almost everywhere we went, we took our own food with us - even sacks of tatties for our corned beef hash. Even then we worked on limited budgets and kept shopping trips to a minimum. However, when we used a caravan at North Berwick, we bought everything in the town. I haven't done any since thse days so cannot comment on a decline in spending. I do have weekends away and noticed the hotels are not as busy so maybe all areas are suffering?

[Snowball]

Originally Posted by Hometune

However, when we used a caravan at North Berwick, we bought everything in the town.

As most people know, caravan sites are generally situated very remote from towns and/or shopping areas. We like to support local shops, but too often several things make this difficult or virtually impossible. Being retired, we hold bus passes, so leaving the car on site and taking the bus suits us.
Often, though, either a bus route is too far away and/or narrow lanes make it hazardous to walk on roads with no navigable verge. Then, using the car is the only choice. But, with a formidable number of yellow lines everywhere there are tourist facilities, the big supermarkets take precedence because they have freely available carparking.
The only place we find easy for local shops is when we stay just outside Bedale, Yorkshire. The local bus (free for us) takes us either into Bedale or Northallerton; the latter being great for local shops.
Northallerton and a few of the surrounding towns have another clever advantage. A visit to a local shop will get you (free) a parking badge that you set to your 'time up' period and place on the dashboard. This gives you 2 hours free in many parking areas on the main street.
It's 3 years or so since we visited the area. There was a Sainsbury's at that time, but I think Tesco have also moved in since.
Over a period of a year, these supermarkets probably grab far more business from local residents than tourists, so it may be that people like ourselves supporting local shops would have little difference on the outcome in the longer term.
Some local shops might gain from the rising costs of fuel if the round trip to a supermarket is cost effective. But even here, a local shop being taken over by Tesco as a "convenience store" can devastate the other shops around, because Tesco's bulk-buying power results in unchallengeable shelf prices.
And rising costs again favour such a convenience store, because the locals are also forced to make savings, so will take their custom to an establishment which, inwardly, they possibly detest.

[wagolynn]

The local Shell filling station is closing, said to be due to high prices causing turnover to drop too low to cover overheads.

[MrDanno]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

The local Shell filling station is closing, said to be due to high prices causing turnover to drop too low to cover overheads.

Without them selling other products I don't think any of them would survive. Where I live we have Esso, BP and Shell all a stones throw away from one another.

[ficklejade]

Originally Posted by MrDanno

Without them selling other products I don't think any of them would survive. Where I live we have Esso, BP and Shell all a stones throw away from one another.

In many of our remote areas, the cost to both the filling station and consumer is so high, it makes the situation impossible - can you imagine having to drive 28 miles just to fill up and they want us to be greener? In the last couple of years, two communities have raised funds to keep their filling stations - Applecross and Lochaline - the latter would have closed unless it updated the pumps and the cost was horrendous! I doubt our local will close because it's a repair garage as well, is in the main village on the island and has the Council's servicing/repair contract but I know some others that are operating as filling stations and the folks running it are providing a service whilst having other jobs.