[TC1474]

I found this article regarding electric vehicle batteries which I thought makes some interesting points and certainly puts me off wanting an EV for the time being.

This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.

To manufacture it you need: --
12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be extracted from sea water) --
5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made as a by-product of processing copper and nickel ores. It is the most difficult and expensive material to obtain for a battery.) --
3 tons nickel ore --
12 tons of copper ore You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain: --
26.5 pounds of Lithium --
30 pounds of nickel --
48.5 pounds of manganese --
15 pounds of cobalt

To manufacture the battery also requires: --
441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic --
112 pounds of graphite

The Caterpillar 994A is used to move the earth to obtain the minerals needed for this battery.

The Caterpillar consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours. The bulk of necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa.

Much of the labour in Africa is done by children. When you buy an electric car, China profits most.

The 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation.

The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries are: Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990) Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740) Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990) Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)

It takes 7 years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the battery is 10 years (average). Only in the last 3 years do you start to reduce your carbon footprint, but then the batteries must be replaced and you lose all gains made.

And finally, my new friend, Michael, made some excellent points: I forgot to mention the amount of energy required to process the raw materials and the amount of energy used to haul these batteries to the U.S. sometimes back and forth a couple of times.

But by all means, get an electric car. Just don't sell me on how awesome you are for the environment. Or for human rights.

[Santa]

I agree that there are some serious questions about the benefits of switching to EV. It's not just cars either, but all those scooters and bikes made cheaply in China and elsewhere.

One problem, though, is that whatever statistics you use, they probably come from one side of the argument or the other. It's hard to find definitive details.

Whatever the truth is today, I think it fair to assume that things will improve as production volumes increase and recycling begins to ramp up.

It's far from perfect, but think of how bad cars were 50 years ago when there were no emission controls and petrol had lead in it. I live on the edge of a country town and when I go into the city, the stink of carbon fuel emissions is almost overwhelming.

[Drivingforfun]

@TC1474

I totally agree with your final statement

EVs are in fact great if you don't want to spend money on petrol, and want faster acceleration, I would never deny that

I kind of wonder if EVs are a bit like the war effort where people donated scrap metal - they wanted to be seen to do the right thing, but most didn't realise their pots and pans were just being thrown away because the metal was of too poor grade to make airplanes and ammunition...?

[NMNeil]

Interesting that you show the cost of the materials for the battery, but don't forget the same materials and the same impacts from their mining are used in cell phones, laptops, tablets and power tools, so do you propose that they are no longer sold, or is that somehow different?
And as for the overall environmental impact of EV vs. ICE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

[TC1474]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

Interesting that you show the cost of the materials for the battery, but don't forget the same materials and the same impacts from their mining are used in cell phones, laptops, tablets and power tools, so do you propose that they are no longer sold, or is that somehow different?
And as for the overall environmental impact of EV vs. ICE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Did you read my first line!

I did not write this piece. My first words were "I found this article"

So I am not proposing anything. My only comment was that it has put me off wanting an EV even more so.....

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

Interesting that you show the cost of the materials for the battery, but don't forget the same materials and the same impacts from their mining are used in cell phones, laptops, tablets and power tools, so do you propose that they are no longer sold, or is that somehow different?
And as for the overall environmental impact of EV vs. ICE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Vehicles are indeed different from phones, tablets etc.

With vehicles, there is a realistic choice to be made between different power sources electricity or fossil fuel.

Maybe a similar choice exists for some power tools, but AFAIK not for phones etc., At least not yet.

[Mark07]

Originally Posted by TC1474

[...] it has put me off wanting an EV even more so.....

Taking for granted that the details shared are reasonably accurate, I think that's a valid position to take.

Personally, I drive a petrol car, but would be open to an EV in the future as I think the tech has come along way and is a viable replacement for ICE vehicles (based on my personal needs).

However, your post goes to show that more innovation is required. As @Santa mentioned, a few decades ago, petrol cars were much less efficient than we're now used to, didn't have so much as a radio and ran on lead based fuel.

Fingers crossed we see equally impressive leaps forward in Hydrogen and/or EV's, perhaps we'll see the development of silicone or graphene batteries.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by TC1474

Did you read my first line!

I did not write this piece. My first words were "I found this article"

So I am not proposing anything. My only comment was that it has put me off wanting an EV even more so.....

My apologies, I did misquote.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

Vehicles are indeed different from phones, tablets etc.

With vehicles, there is a realistic choice to be made between different power sources electricity or fossil fuel.

The materials used in lithium based batteries all come from the same sources, sometimes involving child labour, so the environmental issue is the same if the battery goes in a car or in a phone. And surprisingly lithium is used in lubricants, for ICE engines, and glazing for ovenware, and has been for a very long time.
And the problem with fossil fuels is simply the pollution they cause, hence the rise of the EV to combat this pollution.
The US is one of the worlds worse offenders in regard to vehicle generated pollution so 9 states are banning the sale of new fossil fuels vehicles with more States looking to follow. Some cities are already denying permits to build new petrol stations.
The ICE engine is circling the drain

[Rolebama]

To me, the biggest catch on EVs is the Govt looking at the loss of income from fuel duty and the VAT. What outrageous scheme will be dreamt up to make up this deficit.

[Grimm]

It's important to think about the environmental and ethical issues of making EV batteries, especially with mining and labor practices. These factors matter when considering EVs' overall impact.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

To me, the biggest catch on EVs is the Govt looking at the loss of income from fuel duty and the VAT. What outrageous scheme will be dreamt up to make up this deficit.

It will take decades before the last ICE car is off the road and in that time the politicians will have changed and so will the laws.
But on the subject of finance how will they deal with the loss of income from the ULEZ zones and tickets for loud exhausts, both of which will be redundant, and with the speed limiters no more income from speeding tickets.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by Grimm

It's important to think about the environmental and ethical issues of making EV batteries, especially with mining and labor practices. These factors matter when considering EVs' overall impact.

Rather naive.
Does the fact that child labour is used to mine the platinum and palladium that goes into a catalytic convertor enter into your buying choice for an ICE car, or when the ladies are looking in jewellery store windows do they consider that child labour is being used for gold and diamond mining, and do you look at the products you buy in the supermarket to see the ones that contain palm oil which is produced using child labour ?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...forced-labour/